Crushing Culture
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Crushing Culture
Shiny Happy People - Reaction to Ep. 1 - Pt. 1
Unlock the door to the intriguing world of the Duggar family with us, as we venture into the complex interplay of religion, media, and personal lives in the first episode of the captivating documentary series 'Shiny Happy People'. The spotlight may seem to be on the Duggars, but the true protagonist is the Institute and the enigmatic Bill Gothard. Prepare to question your beliefs and challenge your assumptions as we examine the Orthodox religious upbringing of this unique family who became an oddity showcased by the TLC network.
We unravel the Duggar family's strict missionary Baptist lifestyle and familial dynamics, from Jim Bob's unusual fascination with cheerleading to Michelle's strangely marginal presence in the series. We also shed light on the experiences of Deanna, Amy's mother, and her decision to offer her daughter a life she was denied - a life outside the confines of their strict religious beliefs. Brace yourselves for a deep dive into the controversial world of Bill Gothard, his original religion Gideonism, his seven life principles, and the 'umbrella of protection', an oppressive system of hierarchy he propagated. In our journey, we also unmask the controversies surrounding the Duggar family and Bill Gothard, with a special emphasis on Jim Holt's involvement.
Okay okay, so okay, we're back.
Speaker 1:And we're back without producer Jen this week. Producer Jen is out of town out of the country in Korea. She's in Korea, which is very cool.
Speaker 2:It is very cool.
Speaker 1:Here we are having to press our own record buttons.
Speaker 2:There's no cute little commentating.
Speaker 1:No on the side. It's a sad day.
Speaker 2:It is a sad day. No really good pictures.
Speaker 1:Nobody here to capture my six chins as I lounge, because I don't have to worry about it.
Speaker 2:Yeah exactly, or my bad posture.
Speaker 1:Although that's not true, because you just put me on blast to everyone on Instagram Story you do not have six change.
Speaker 2:You have one in that video and a half maybe yeah, I think my phone was in the way. Yeah, you're welcome, I Well. I mean, it's been a minute since we recorded. Yeah, a lot of things have gone on in life, though. Yeah so we apologize, but life happens you're on vacation. Piper had 17,000 little league games. Jen was working a lot. Yeah, we had to pull deckboards.
Speaker 1:Yeah, sometimes you find that you know People are lazy and there's entire boulders in your house, demolish a concrete porch and then just decide to build a wood porch over top of it instead of doing things the right way. And yeah, then the concrete slabs lean into your foundation of your house and almost take out a wall.
Speaker 2:Yeah, is what it is. Yeah, we were busy, but we're back. We did do a live saying that we were gonna talk about this documentary, which hopefully this gave people plenty of time to watch it. Yeah, so this is your spoiler alert spoiler alert.
Speaker 1:Yes, episode focuses on Our podcast. Episode is focusing on episode one, and only episode one, of shiny happy people Yep, which is a free series that got released recently on Amazon Prime, correct, and the.
Speaker 1:I think I would call it the hook into the show, because it's really not about them, but they like cleverly use them as a way to get people to be like oh, I remember that I'm gonna watch the show is if you were growing up and remember there was like 18 different variations of the show but like I think the last one was 19 kids and counting. Yeah, obviously at some point it was 18 and 17 and 14 with the Duggar family, which I Remember them. I didn't watch the show when I was younger but I remember that show existing and I remember people. It was like a clever pop culture reference. Like you know, if the Duggar family can do it with 18 kids, like you could do it with two kind of right. So they are definitely the hook into the show, but the show is actually more about the Institute and Bill gothard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, which is crazy because I think we touched on this a little bit in the live is so many people sent me Like a link to this series to be like you need to watch this, you need to watch this, and I'm like, why do I need to watch about 19 kids and counting? Then I started watching it and I was like in complete and utter shock that this like religion that they were involved in was so like hand-in-hand. How I grew up like I was just baffled that I was just a little bit more like I was just baffled that I didn't know this before, right.
Speaker 1:I had that same reaction because you know 19 kids accounting was like a bit of a phenomenon, if you will. It was, like we said, like I said, like huge pop culture reference. I think At the time that that show became popular was just when, like mainstream media was realizing what like reality, reality TV could be, and you know they mentioned it actually in the first episode but it's a low-cost Production of a show that people were just enamored with, like you think about back then.
Speaker 2:I mean that has to be around the time, like the real world started to become a thing and all of that, the housewives like all that.
Speaker 1:So you know the they came in at just the right time where all that stuff was becoming popular, I think. And, and yeah, so you know, I think that was something that back then, like if you asked anybody that was a bit older, like I'm not even that old, you know, I was young when that show was out, like probably in single digits even, yeah, and I still remember it right.
Speaker 2:So, like people older than me, certainly remember it, oh yeah yeah, and I mean, if you think about it too like this kind of crossed my mind when I was reviewing everything this morning.
Speaker 2:So TLC is the channel that put it out right and probably 90% of those shows are geared towards like the demographic of women or like younger you know, I don't know like teen and up women. So like this show had to have been mostly watched by like women. Like I couldn't see like my dad sitting down and watching that you know what I mean.
Speaker 1:Like and TLC always had those like very. It's funny because I think that TLC elected to do the show with them because they were always this network that did like series like that on, like oddities, and they saw them as an oddity with, you know, 14 kids or whatever it was when it first started. And then it just became this thing that people stopped seeing as an oddity, which is really weird. They almost started to see them as this, like perfect Christian family, as opposed to saying like hey, the rest of this network picks up things that are just strange. Yeah, like they literally have a show called my Strange Addiction that they air. They have all kinds like bridezillas. Like they're not airing things that they're like trying to get people to watch because they're like we want you to be better, so let me show you this like perfect example of how to run your family. Like they obviously picked this as a show to have because it was shocking and they thought it would gravitate an audience.
Speaker 1:But that's not how we look at it. I mean that's not. I mean that's how we look at it. That's not how a lot of people will look at it. A lot of people look at it and are, oh my God, look at how organized they are for having that many kids and look at what wonderful parents they are. All the kids are so well behaved. Blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:But gag, yeah, we'll go behind the scenes on all of those.
Speaker 1:Yes, so yeah, so what the show is actually about, as I mentioned, is a cult, like I think it's fair to call it that called the Institute. And its founder's name is Bill Gothard. And so they spend the first episode. Definitely there are members of the Duggar family that are happy participants in the show, as well as ex-institute members, and really the show is actually about this cult, but they use the Duggars as like a familiar pop culture reference for everyone, which is amazing.
Speaker 1:Yes, actually I think that it's really great because you said this already. I mean, I said this Watching that show that's not what you associated it with. That's somebody that didn't come from that place. But I think that in the future episodes there are some of those people that are ex-institute members that say like I watch that show and I immediately couldn't watch it because I knew what was going on there. So it's like four people that are recovering or have left their experiences there. It was immediately identifiable for them, but not to necessarily the common eye, which I think is a little dangerous, because you watch that and you see all these parts that you think are good, not how they're getting there with them, and I think that that's very dangerous.
Speaker 2:And I think one girl in the show at one point on the first episode called it Evangelical Propaganda, fundamentalist Propaganda, yep which I think is very, very fair to title it that, Because it's almost like how they sink their hooks into you in a religion period. They show you something like you could have this great organized life with children that behave and the doting wife and the masculine husband who works and blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:None of them are masculine. They all look the same yeah short tail.
Speaker 2:Nirty round glasses Right, like beating their wives and their children hate them. But we'll get into that too.
Speaker 1:So I think, to start, maybe we'll talk about the people that were involved in episode one and just give backgrounds on all of these people, because it's one thing that you and I were talking about when you first got here, because I also rewatched the episode this morning just to make sure it was fresh, and I know you did the same. There are a lot of people that they put on the show and I think it's easy to perceive them as heroes because they're brave. Quote unquote, which I mean I don't want to take away from that.
Speaker 2:Right, like I do think they're just speaking up. Yes, I do think there's more to the story.
Speaker 1:Yes, I do think it takes a lot to be the face and tell the truth, but I also don't want to get lost and twisted here that not all of these people are good people still.
Speaker 2:No, but like obviously they might be saying and letting their voices be heard.
Speaker 1:But there are still some of these people on here that and some that aren't, but some that are just like.
Speaker 2:They're still shitheads and don't lose sight of that and I'm sure they got paid to be on the show.
Speaker 1:Handsomely, I'm sure. Well, I mean depending on how well the show did, which Right, which is done very well, yeah, so yeah, go through your list, nicole.
Speaker 2:Ok, nicole and her lists.
Speaker 1:Yes, so we have Jim Bob Jim.
Speaker 2:Bob.
Speaker 1:And his wife, Michelle Yep, who are the parents, the Duggers and the Teen Kids and Counting. So, Jim Bob and Michelle Duggar. Jill Duggar who I believe is like the third or fourth kid yeah. Yeah, so she's one of the children from 19 Kids and Counting who was interviewed on the show with her husband. I didn't write her husband's name down, but he's in there as well.
Speaker 1:Amy Duggar Well, they're not Duggers anymore, right? Amy, who is the cousin of all the children on the show. So Jim Bob's sister, whose name is Deanna, who also interviews on the show, her child, amy, is on the show and gives interviews, and Amy is not brought up in the same way as the correct the other children. I have some good notes on that. Okay, so do we? I mean, do you want, should we stop and talk about each one individually as we talk about?
Speaker 2:them. I mean, we can yeah, okay, so let's start with Jim, bob and Michelle let's start with Jim, bob and Michelle.
Speaker 1:Okay, so what? I know that you have like detailed information on all of these things?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so Jim Bob and his sister Deanna. Yes, we're raised like Baptist, right. Was it like missionary Baptist. Well, let me get. Let me get to that page notes. People can hear us like flipping.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's fine, as we do this, I have like six pages here.
Speaker 2:This just shows our dedication. Yeah, sure does.
Speaker 1:Make sure you flip it close to the microphone so people believe us.
Speaker 2:Okay, there you go. It's a little what ASMR. Yeah, there you go, you're welcome, free therapy. So, yeah, they were raised missionary Baptist, which? So if we rewind to things that we've talked about about the church I grew up in, they say that they're non quote, unquote, non-denominational, which is just a fancy way of saying we don't want to put a title on it because these other people have titles and bad people or things that bad things have been said about these titles. But it's literally this. Yeah, because she mentions that when they grew up, they had no dances at school, which we know is check, I did not have any dances at school. They were not allowed to wear jeans. Remember, check, I was not allowed to wear jeans. They didn't have things like cheerleading, which I found very interesting that they grew up where they didn't have cheerleading or they couldn't be cheerleaders. But Jim Bob saw Michelle cheerleading and was like, oh, I need to date that.
Speaker 1:I also find it interesting that, of all sports, that that's going to be the one that they target, that they're not allowed to do, because what does a cheerleader do? Like wear short skirts, and Well, I mean, I guess I've been the short skirt part, but you sit on the sideline and cheer on the men.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like it's your soul role, right.
Speaker 1:I mean there's going to be somebody that gets to find it out there.
Speaker 2:I acknowledge the immense amount of athleticism that is required to be a cheerleader. Right.
Speaker 1:And, like now, you have cheer competitions and whatever else, that was not like that.
Speaker 2:That was not like that, correct.
Speaker 1:So, please, if you are a cheerleader, I absolutely would break every limb in my body if I attempted to do any of that.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:This is not me like poo pooing and cheerleading. Okay, but back then.
Speaker 2:And then it was not like that.
Speaker 1:You showed up at the football games and cheered on all the men and, you know, acted dainty and whatever else so like I am a bit surprised that like Fact that they were not allowed to participate in that, so that was like one thing where I was like, oh, okay, so they were raised.
Speaker 2:very much. You cannot cheerlead. But Jim Bob immediately went and found a cheerleader who, he like, shared the word of God with and she got down on her hands and knees and accepted you got into her like whatever the hell it was, yeah, whatever that meant, but I also I don't know if you caught this, but I think it was Jill said that they got married at 17 and 19. Yes, and how old were they when they first met and how long did they date? Because that's super young, 17 is so young.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but like that for them in those communities, like that's not young for them.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:They start promising each other to be married, like when you're like young teens, yeah, so whatever. Yeah, I mean I'm less surprised by that nowadays, because I mean yeah even look at um, what do you want to call it? The Mormon religions, like those kids have, like three kids. Those kids have kids, yeah. By the time they're 20. Yeah, 21. Yeah, that's gross, but sure.
Speaker 2:Yep, so that's. That's a little background on Jim, bob and Michelle. They don't really talk too much about Michelle other than she was a cheerleader.
Speaker 1:Yeah, which is hilarious too. I noticed that throughout the whole first episode, like she's barely the entire series. They don't really talk much about her background, which makes me wonder thinking back like I don't want, I don't have time for this, but like if I were to go back and watch 19 kids and counting.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It makes me wonder how often she would even be on that show other than to like support something that.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm sure that's how.
Speaker 1:Because you watch this, you watch this episode and the only time she's saying anything is to reinforce what he's saying, the teachings that he's saying, or whatever he's putting out there. So yeah, um. So the second one was Jill Jill Duggar, who's now Dillard Dillard, okay.
Speaker 2:You remember that fan? Yes, okay.
Speaker 1:That was photographic memory.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, high five.
Speaker 1:So there are things about her.
Speaker 2:I'm not going to say quite yet, yeah, cause it's going to get coming.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but she is, like I said, I think like the fourth kid or something.
Speaker 2:I think she's like this. They had twins first yeah and then they were. Josh, then twins, then her. I think Josh's first.
Speaker 1:So then there's twins and then her or something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she had to be like the fourth, so she's yes.
Speaker 1:So she has chosen to be interviewed on the show which, like I want to say up front, throughout all of the episodes, obviously Jim, bob and Michelle refused to partake in the making of the show. So um, her choosing to be on this show is obviously against the wishes oh yeah, and her participation is against the wishes of her parents.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean and they will get into that more I mean she. I don't think she associates at all with her family.
Speaker 1:It doesn't appear to be that way. Yes, it doesn't appear to be that way. I don't know if, like maybe some of the siblings she talks to, though.
Speaker 2:It's yeah.
Speaker 1:I feel like that's possible, but like parents, yeah, anything else you have on her.
Speaker 2:Um, not really. I mean, that's kind of like her background. I mean, obviously we'll talk about more about things that happened, or she said, yeah, also, side note, her husband, which we can't remember his name, um is a piece of shit Really. Oh, big time, like they make him seem like very supportive and you know great Like he's. You know he's keeping her secrets and blah, blah, blah. But he literally like makes very, very um homophobic comments on, like his internet pages.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, Cause a lot of the kids have YouTube pages and stuff like that.
Speaker 2:So like that was like one thing where I was like dude, he like like comes off on here. Like you know, jill and I helped Jill get out of this horrible family, but he's actually a piece of shit.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, big surprise, um and then I'm going to lump Amy and Deanna together. So Deanna is Jim Bob sister, like we said. Um, they, as, as mentioned, grew up missionary Baptist. Deanna takes the fact that she was not allowed to wear skirts or, I'm sorry, where there is a deer, like literally right behind you. Baby Two of them.
Speaker 1:Little babies, the babies. Yeah, we got. We got two little baby deer in the neighborhood. Um, that roam around our house because Autumn was so kind as to um feed them carrots last year. Uh, after, was it so cute? Yeah, is it so cute when they're shitting on my lawn and it's good for a laser Okay.
Speaker 1:Um, okay, yeah, so Deanna and Amy. Um, so Deanna grows up missionary Baptist as well, all the things that crush mentioned, like not allowed to do cheerleading, not allowed to wear pants Um, all of that grows up in that very strict religion and explicitly states that. They explicitly states that that's not what she wanted for her child, so she was going to let her kid do those things. Like Amy, the daughter mentions having a boyfriend as early as eight and, you know, being able to go to school dances and, you know, be a cheerleader and do the things that she wanted to do. And then starts to talk about, like, growing up and because she was on the TV show, yeah, With the cousins.
Speaker 1:So clips that they show where the cousins are, like yeah, amy's a little different than us, but we do still, of course, love her.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like because Amy was living this life.
Speaker 2:That, like, the kids are like oh, a normal life, yes, a normal life, yes, but not to them.
Speaker 1:Not to them. You know she's, she's being promiscuous and whatever else, and you could see like from such an early age, because these are. These clips are from children that are in single digits, yeah, and they're like they're praying for her soul.
Speaker 2:They're praying for her soul.
Speaker 1:They're passing judgment at such an early age and, like I actually talked with Autumn about this recently, asked her a question Like do you think judgment and hate is a learned behavior or something that's you know, or is it frog segueırd, how inherently grown within you? Like something that you're born with that like fosters and grows over time. And she's that taught Like she believes that it's taught and like that is just a prime example of something that a kid is not judgmental by nature. That is a learned behavior.
Speaker 2:I actually I think I wrote up like a quote down oh, I did too at the end.
Speaker 1:Like monsters are created. Yes, I wrote that down too. Yep, yep, yep, we'll get into that, we'll get into that.
Speaker 2:But I do have some more Amy comments.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:So there was a couple of things she said that hit close to home, like cause I'm trying to like pull the similarities from how I grew up, like what I'm seeing in here, and like one of the things she said is like they didn't have a radio, like they weren't allowed to listen to the radio.
Speaker 1:That was like another big. Thing.
Speaker 2:I had TV, but it was very strictly like only certain.
Speaker 1:Are you talking about you or what she said?
Speaker 2:Both Like they didn't have a TV Like I could watch, but not like it was very like you could watch only a few shows. The other thing she said is they she could have posters of boys on the wall, like she was like, oh, I had Jonathan, taylor, thomas, and like none of the girls or cousins could have that, and that was like one like thing I always I don't know if we talked about this already, but how I wasn't allowed to like have any posters on like of boys on my wall, so like I would cut little magazine pictures and tape them underneath my nightstand so that, like when I laid down at night, I could like see them taped under there, but like if my parents came in my room, they couldn't see it.
Speaker 1:So did you ever get caught? No, well done. Yes, thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you. So yeah, I had like little Mark McGrath, mark McGrath.
Speaker 1:You might've just blown every fucking kid in, though, dude, probably Every parent's gonna go in their room and check their kids on their side, on their nightstand.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So that was like something that I was like, oh, I relate to that. And another thing about that whole like judgy cousin perspective. So when I was growing up I was not really allowed to like hang out with my cousins like very, very frequent, but without my parents, right. So there was this one time that, the first and only time I was allowed to spend the night at my grandparents house with my cousin, I was probably 16 or 17. And she took me to a house party because she had an older boyfriend.
Speaker 2:And let me tell you I walked into that house how old were you. I was like 16 or so.
Speaker 1:I think I was like 17.
Speaker 2:At this point I might even have been, like, just graduated high school, but I was older, right so, and it wasn't skinny Atlas, because that's where my family's from, and I walked into this giant like house with that's where our wedding is. Fun, fact, fun fact. I walked into this giant house and literally I like it when you call me big pup, but was playing like blasting on-.
Speaker 1:What an epic walk-up song.
Speaker 2:Yeah, dude, I literally walked in and it was like ah, look at when you call me big pup. But and then like I was just standing there, literally again, I've never seen a house party before. Obviously I don't drink, so like zero idea of what was going on. My cousin just disappears with her boyfriend and I'm just by myself in social shock of this house party and sensory overload also, I'm sure.
Speaker 1:And then I had you ever even heard that song before?
Speaker 2:that no, Right, okay.
Speaker 1:And now I mean I'm just saying it's like one of my favorite songs and anyone who knows that that song was like very popular, so like two have never heard it. I feel like I'm being a 16, 17 year old kid. That's wild, that just shows like how much censorship that you were experiencing.
Speaker 2:And I went home and literally the amount of guilt I had about, a going to a house party, b letting my cousin go off by herself with a boy God only knows what they were doing. But I'm sure there wasn't room for Jesus and, like I, like guilted myself over this for several days and I was convinced that my parents were gonna find out.
Speaker 1:And like I was, a hundred percent going to hell.
Speaker 2:No, I don't think so. Okay, so I just did. Dad, if you're listening, I went to a house party, sorry. Biggie Smalls, yeah. So that was like I was like I feel like Amy was my cousin. Yeah, okay, trying to get me to go to house parties and I was like, oh my goodness.
Speaker 1:Which is so crazy that you're gonna watch the show and then you're gonna like identify literally somebody in your life that you're like, okay, like, this person is my Amy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like that's how paralleled your experience was.
Speaker 2:And I had another huge like bomb dropped in my head about this one too, which sometimes I am like looking back at my life and being like, was this a personal issue? Or like, where did this come from? So Amy mentions that none of her cousins are allowed to wear shorts. I don't know if you caught that.
Speaker 1:Amy and who.
Speaker 2:Amy says none of her cousins are allowed to wear shorts.
Speaker 1:Oh, yes, I did catch that.
Speaker 2:So I literally didn't wear shorts in public until like 2014. And I don't know, like where, like part of me is like where did that come from? Like, is it because we were literally, like, taught we were not allowed to wear? Like? The only time I ever wore shorts was like in the summer, at our private church camp or like at gym class, especially as, like a teenager like I didn't wear shorts in public.
Speaker 2:I didn't wear anything above my knee. So even after I left the church, which was in 2001, it took me 13 or 14 years to ever wear shorts in public.
Speaker 1:That's wild. Yeah, here I am today. What was that? What were you going through Like? Do you remember what it was like the first time that you did it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like I remember saying, this is the first time I'm wearing shorts in public.
Speaker 1:Were you still wearing dresses in public at that point, or you were just wearing pants at?
Speaker 2:least no, I would wear pants yeah. Okay so even if it was 95 out, I would still be wearing pants.
Speaker 1:So then the first time you wear shorts, like what's going through your head, like are you having a pep talk yourself?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah definitely pep talk myself. I still kind of feel that way.
Speaker 1:Really.
Speaker 2:Like I have to like pep talk myself to put shorts on and I don't know, like where, like I'm obviously nowhere that comes from, but like it's crazy that it's still like inherent in my life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that you even have the thought.
Speaker 2:Right. Like is this too immodest? Like am I showing too much skin? Like?
Speaker 1:You got all them tattoos, girl. I know, would you get them off or show them off Exactly?
Speaker 2:exactly, but it's crazy that that mentality will still creep up like in me that like, oh, my shorts are too short, like I'm showing too much skin, and da da, da, da da. What are people gonna think? And then I remind myself like you, a bad bitch, don't care.
Speaker 1:You know, right. Do you know what's funny about the posters thing? This is just like a personal funny story. So I obviously was allowed to have posters on my wall of boys as a child. Do you know the one boy I chose to hang on on? Lance Bass? Oh my God, that's when the whole world should have known. Not JT, no, not. You know some Backstreet Boys who was the?
Speaker 2:Nick Carter yeah.
Speaker 1:You know none of the like typical heart throbs, like no. I managed to pick the one guy that was a raging homosexual that came out later as a homosexual, like good for me, everyone should have known yeah, yeah, just a signed picture of him on my wall, yep.
Speaker 2:The only one I can love it. Yeah, I love it I love it, I love it. It's hilarious Anyway the Holtz, which this one I'm very excited to talk about.
Speaker 1:I'm so excited about this one so the Holtz are Jim Bob's old best friends.
Speaker 2:They knew each other as kids, right yes, High school.
Speaker 1:So this is confusing because the husband's name is also Jim. I never caught the wife's name. Do you know the wife's name? Nope, she only says like six words.
Speaker 2:Wifey.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so they were childhood best friends.
Speaker 2:Yes, and he comes on the show Jim Bob and Jim Holtz.
Speaker 1:Yes, jim Holtz is presented in a way that makes you want to think that he's the voice of like, reason and morality in the situation. But this is what I'm talking about, where I want to back up a minute here Because they slide in like real quick, like I had to rewind and be like did I just hear what? I think I heard? He mentions in his introduction that how him, he and his wife met was that he went on a blind date that was set up for him with her, and he was 19 years old and she was 14. She was very developed. He said One, four and referred to her as very developed.
Speaker 2:I didn't know she was very developed.
Speaker 1:Yes, and then says like but you know, like, we all get married young in Arkansas or wherever they're from, and then she's not like oh yeah. And then makes a joke like and we're related, ha ha ha, just kidding. And it's just like, and that's it, and that's it. And then they move on from that. So like not cool, no right. You could make the argument like I'm sure somebody out there is like, well, if that's how they were brought up, like is that really his fault?
Speaker 2:Yes, kind of thing it is.
Speaker 1:But also like, yeah, I still think it's kind of your fault, like I'm not an excuse person of like you know, you can't have it both ways. Either people have free will to make their own decisions Like that's that's why you say that, like in religion, like you have sin and all those things, because people always say, well, like, if God exists, why are you to bad things happen and people are like oh well, you know, you still have the freedom of choice to do whatever. So, like you can't have your cake and eat it too, so you also have a choice to not subscribe to the fact that it's cool that you marry a 14 year old kid.
Speaker 2:Just because she's, just because she did Right. And then the fun fact I have my Jim Holt note says Jim Holt dash, and then in red and underlined M, f and asshole is what I have written next day.
Speaker 1:Okay, can you give us some more background there? Okay, so.
Speaker 2:Jim holds obviously was Jim Bob's best friend, right?
Speaker 1:I don't know how in depth you want me to drop into this drop what you want to drop, because I don't think there's really going to be another space to. Because they make him seem like a hero the whole time, at least in the first episode.
Speaker 2:We know in the first episode they start talking about which we might be skipping ahead a little bit, but it's going to go well into the Jim Holt era that Josh. Obviously everybody knows Josh is a pedophile, right yeah. So they start talking about how Jim, bob and Michelle like came and told them that Josh was had had molested some kids right Growing up. They talk about that.
Speaker 1:Right, and they say and some of them were his sisters. Right so now that we're saying this, like that is why Jill is on the show.
Speaker 2:Right, she was one of them, so they came and told Jim Holt and his wife that Josh had been molesting people in the family and at that time Jim Holt's daughter, Kaylee. Kaylee was dating Josh and they said they weren't going to tell Kaylee or the parents until after they were married because they were hoping that that would fix him. Which is ridiculous sanity, because marriage doesn't fix the child molester.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And they think it's going to probably make it even worse.
Speaker 1:Well, what you go? Get to have children and then continue to be a child molester.
Speaker 2:But they also say dates. They said oh, it was 2003 when Jim Bob came to us and told us that Josh was doing this or had done this, but it was 2008 when 19 kids and counting was put on TV.
Speaker 1:Right. So that's five years of them knowing I did not actually catch until this last time that I was watching it as I was taking notes, just because I think I was more engaged watching it. Yeah, these allegations came out in the public prior to choosing to allow them to be a television sensation.
Speaker 2:Five years, five years. And then Jim Holt and his wife and family choose to be on the television show to support all of this, knowing those allegations? Yeah.
Speaker 1:So they absolutely come on the show trying to have this like revisionist, like history type of attitude and you know I'm going to put a little bit of this on the producers of the show. They kind of allow them to almost be in a redemption story, I feel like when really like what, what entitles them to that Right Right, like like you kind of brushed over that fact because I missed it when I watched it at first and you're just like not really highlighting like all of these people's like complicit attitudes in this situation.
Speaker 2:So to dig in deeper to Jim Holt yeah, so he knew about Josh still at the TV show. Be the whole 14 year old wife. He also ran side by side in politics with Jim Bob.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:And they had very similar platforms.
Speaker 1:Right, which was also well after the allegations came out.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I mean Jim Bob literally ran like the day after like major allegations came out about Josh. So that also to me is complete insanity. But recently Jim Holt's wife has put a restraining order out on him.
Speaker 1:No kidding. Like within the last month.
Speaker 2:Wow, and it said like he's been physically abusive him and because they have like 11 kids.
Speaker 1:Yes, so he, like he, when he was being interviewed and introducing himself and he was like and we have two kids, once on one daughter, and then the wife like kind of looked at him and then I think she's the one that says we have 11 children. Yeah, and I don't know if, like, it was supposed to be a joke, because obviously his sense of humor is odd right like, because it's almost like he knows all this stuff is real shitty shitty and and Abnormal and not socially acceptable, to say the least, because he cracks jokes about what should be a typical answer right, regularly and throughout the show.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and like I don't think they were gonna actually let him get away with saying he only had two kids. But it's just the point that you, like you think that joke is funny. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, now there's a restraining order. That's interesting yeah and I think it's. It must be one of the younger children. Mm-hmm, she has the younger children, so there's like a restraining order against him with, like her and the child. Okay, so I was like that's why I put MF an asshole, because this guy's an asshole and he comes off in this TV show. Like I finally told Jim Bob, he had to turn Josh in. Yeah, okay, you told him to turn him in and then you literally did the show with them for like years and then ran like side-by-side, like for many and I'd be interested to know at all.
Speaker 1:I would be interested to know like what impact that was on, like the relationship with the daughter because, like Josh went up to the parents and said I'd like to court your daughter for the purposes of marriage, which gag is estate 1800s or right. Um, so I I'm curious, like after they found that out, did they just continue to let their daughter date him, like he obviously didn't marry her right?
Speaker 1:Then they very quickly after show, like his wife's name was like Anna or whatever, but I mean I can't imagine that they cut that off immediately.
Speaker 2:I know because okay, so do we want to dig into the whole Jim Bob and Jim Holt Like situation of? Jim Holt said to Jim Bob like so Jim Bob Was in political office at the time and he had just put a bill forward, just hang on, so he was, so he was Okay.
Speaker 1:Before we get to that, before we get to that, okay, so we have, because that'll, that's like a whole rabbit hole. We're gonna miss these other two people and oh yeah, I'm gonna play. One of them is the most important person of all, okay, so there's another person that comes on towards the end that's very involved in future episodes, called Brooke Arnold Yep. Brooke is an X Institute member. I blp I blp member, which I blp is probably what we're gonna say.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a lot, it's a mouthful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it stands for Insta I have a gun down somewhere. Yeah, institute and basic life principles what it stands for. So I blp um. She's an X member of that, so she's coming on. No affiliation with the Duggards, just an X member yes and then Bill got there. It is the last person that is brought up in the show, yes, but the most important Bill got there is the founder of the Institute or IVLP, so a Real shithead real shit head.
Speaker 1:He is Basically like just tours the world or I don't know world, but country at least yeah towards the country, giving talks on principles of his, his life's teachings, and his target audience is definitely Church already church going people, and it seems that he's finding the most success in Recruiting and I'm going to use that term very specifically because that's what it is and recruiting individuals To his teachings that are coming from more radical religions.
Speaker 1:So this is something that we touch on here and there, but there are certain religions that you see Colts come out of more than others or not. I shouldn't say religions necessarily, I don't know how you want to phrase that but Denominations. I guess there are certain denominations that have a very high Correlation of like this cult came from axe Denomination and where you'll see frequent ties back to certain ones. So he's definitely targeting some of these more extremist denominations as like almost a gateway drug into his even more radical and extreme teachings. And I think we see that a lot in a lot of places and I just kind of want to point that out, that this isn't something that's specific to Bill gothard. Like, if you look up other cults, this is very common for them to come from like Mormonism and other religions like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah. So a fun fact about Bill gothard, which I'm sure you caught too, is that hit the original Religion he was raised in is based off of like it's called like, gideonism.
Speaker 1:Yes, and that's where all those Bible games association.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that makes the Gideon Bibles. His dad started that.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so everybody that has ever walked into a hotel, and you have a Bible in the drawer. Direct tie to Bill got that is a direct tie to Bill gothard. They were the ones that made that happen. Yeah, I get Ian's association Yep.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I thought that was pretty crazy. Another thing that they said which I found very similar to how the church I grew up and was started, is that Bill gothard started this, the IVLP, around the same time in the 60s and 70s, which in the world was when there was like the civil rights movement and the women's rights movement, yeah, and so he started this to kind of come student protesting right to combat that freedom right, and that was exactly how the church I grew up and started, the same exact timeframe for the same exact reasons.
Speaker 2:Yeah, hold those hippies in and show them like I can give you like the path where you're gonna have the perfect family the way it fits.
Speaker 1:It was very much a time where I felt like people were looking for answers. Right, and that might sound silly nowadays, because we think about where we're at today and this is like almost like I think I've said this so many times on the podcast like we're in the age of information. Right, like any information you want is quite literally at your fingertips. Like you carry a tiny tiny computer around in your pocket every day. You can Google everything. Right, and there's good and bad with that. Like that means any idiot gets to have a platform. Right, like anybody can post anything on the internet. So you need to be like somewhat aware of what you're reading and have some generals common sense or want to Validate things.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah but overall, like this is the age of information. Like you can find anything you want about Anything, like you could. You could go down a rabbit hole for hours on one topic.
Speaker 1:Back then you get nothing there was none of that you had the news which was it's clear propaganda Right like the news, the news station is gonna tell you what they want to tell you and exactly how they want to portray it. Right, newspapers, same thing. So, like news outlets, they're supposed to be unbiased, but like we know that that's not the case. Everybody leans one way or the other. Like you hope that people are at least generally being truthful, but these are the outlets you have. And then otherwise, like, where are you getting your information other than talking about things within your circle? But then who's validating that? Yeah, so this guy rolls up and says I've got all the answers. That's not the way. I have the way. Yeah, and these people are living in a time of, like, great uncertainty. And he prays on that. Yep, I wrote down some more, bill Gother facts.
Speaker 2:Let me, let me find it in my notes. I, yeah, I literally wrote he. He said we have the answer to conquer every problem you have. That was one thing he actually said that they quoted in in this first episode, which I was like it's just like the, the worm on the hook to like reel in these people, and they called it prosperity gospel. I don't know if you caught that saying too. So basically what he was doing was like I'm going to give you all the keys to success.
Speaker 1:So that's what he called prosperity gospel and they promise prosperity and success. Yeah, and I wrote him down.
Speaker 2:I wrote all his seven life principles, oh the key success oh, I sure did it was. One is design, mm hmm. Two is authority, three is responsibility For his ownership, five is suffering, six is freedom and seven is success. So I would be interested to find out, like breaking down each one of those like, because I haven't dug deep enough into, like what he has to say about each of those I can gather my own opinion on.
Speaker 1:Yeah, design for sure is the umbrella of protection, which which I want to talk about in this episode, because they they like bring that up and I do think that they go more into it later on, but they, they just kind of really just kind of flash out that by on the screen. But I think talking about that now my better I even drew a diagram.
Speaker 2:I drew a diagram.
Speaker 1:Okay, oh, I sure did.
Speaker 2:I sure did.
Speaker 1:But I can't test the design.
Speaker 2:The design principle is going to be the umbrella protection Authority also falls under that same design because everything's about authority, Like I think he literally even says it in there about authority. He breaks it down and is like people think that they can be on the same level as the politicians.
Speaker 1:Yes, he specifically says like we have a problem with authority right now, like we think, like children want to be equal to the parent, and he starts talking about this and he like, really like brainwashing, like flips it and said God has not designed authority in that manner. Right, and he starts to say, like there is authority, but you need to respect the chain of authority authority yes, and if you stay in the umbrella diagram.
Speaker 2:Satan can't get you.
Speaker 1:And literally outside of your umbrella like pointing outside of the yes, if you are outside of your umbrella, you are exposing yourself to the dangers of Satan. Basically is what they say Like if you don't stay under your umbrella, imagine the rain as Satan's little influencers. I guess, like that's pretty much what they're saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so the umbrella goes. There's the umbrella, the top. The top is God. The next is your pastor Under.
Speaker 1:That is the husband, and also let's say in Bill and Bill Gothard's world, it's God, god, bill got gothard yeah pastor yeah. Husband wife, children and mind you like. If you watch the show, you'll see the diagram and maybe we'll post the diagram too for everybody. But imagine that each umbrella gets smaller and smaller.
Speaker 2:As you go down. Those are your rights right.
Speaker 1:Those are your rights going as you go down.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I also put a little side note about this umbrella comment, which I believe I stated this in a previous episode, but I'm going to reiterate it during this umbrella topic that when I left, my dad literally said to me I hope bad things happen to you so that you realize that you are not under the protection of God anymore.
Speaker 2:And that's essentially what he was referring to 100% because, how I grew up, they also believe in that same umbrella of protection, that same like God, pastor, husband, wife, children. So I found that very like. It was very triggering. But you know also like oh, I see you like yeah, I see what you're doing here.
Speaker 1:I see this bullshit.
Speaker 2:Yep, oh look, I even wrote people not equal to the government, people not equal with pastors, that's. That's what they were saying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so those are all like the main players.
