Crushing Culture
Hosted by: Deb Crush & Nic.
Producer & Social Media Manager: Jenn.
Please remember, if you, or anyone you know is experiencing emotional, physical, or sexual abuse, you are not alone.
Crisis hotlines can be found here:
https://app.projecthealthyminds.com/tactics/helplines?gclid=CjwKCAiA0cyfBhBREiwAAtStHNu_hIL0Fthkh9OYFjMNxXN7nZ4Ge08s6VypJqsd_BIBg3-sTOYaBhoCaVsQAvD_BwE
Crushing Culture
Ride That Rainbow Straight to Hell - Pt. 3
We've got a whopper of an episode for ya'll! This is the final segment in this recording with CJ and Jae. Sad face, we know. But its a long one, so soak your time with them in!
Have you ever struggled with finding your true identity within the confines of strict gender roles and religious expectations? In today's powerful episode, we dive into this often-hidden struggle as we share our personal experiences and welcome our brave guests, to tell their stories of growing up in a religious community and reconciling their non-binary identity.
Together, we discuss the impact of gender, religion, and identity on our lives and the importance of finding acceptance and support in non-traditional spaces, such as rugby and drag culture. We also tackle the challenges of navigating family dynamics, maintaining relationships with loved ones, and staying true to ourselves amidst societal backlash against LGBTQ+ rights and the increasing acceptance of physical violence and extreme beliefs.
Join us on this eye-opening journey as we emphasize the need for exposing our youth to diverse and accepting communities, fostering open dialogue around these issues, and celebrating the resilience and courage of those who dare to challenge traditional gender roles and religious expectations. Don't miss this essential conversation that sheds light on the hidden struggles and triumphs of our personal journeys to self-discovery and acceptance.
All of these topics, and a riveting discussion about bologna. Yes, you read that correctly, it says bologna. How did we get there? You'll have to listen to find out!
So you guys talked about when you first started to realize that you were career J specifically. I wanted to ask you a couple things like so for you, you said you started realizing around eighth grade. So were you realizing at that point that you liked women, or realizing that you were non-binary then? because that's been the non-binary thing in that it's. It's weird because there's been an acceptance of that more recently within the queer community, but while that's all been happening there's been a significant less acceptance, i think in the world world about it And, as a response to the, i think, the acceptance of it and the gay community.
Speaker 1:So was that all happening at once for you, or was this two separate experiences for you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, i think they're. They are distinct And I honestly I think I knew that my gender didn't feel right as prescribed, and church played a big role in that, in terms of like when we weren't at church. My family was not wealthy And I'm the youngest and I have two older brothers And I thrived in their hand-me-downs.
Speaker 3:Yeah that is what was comfortable to me. That's what I wanted to do. I was always out playing basketball and like rough and tumble, like everything else, but Sunday you got to get dressed up and look. good for you know for.
Speaker 3:God and for everyone else who's in that building. Yeah, really, and that was just like as long as I can remember, like I don't often just say things were traumatic, but like traumatic for me to get dressed up in tights and dresses and little shoes and stuff like that, to the point that, like my parents would have to pin me down to get me in that clothes, my dad would have to beg me to. Like you know, your mom will be disappointed, upset, Hurts my heart Like just so much of this.
Speaker 3:It's just that yeah, like, like physical, not the pen down, unfortunately. Yeah, like the physical manipulation to get me into it, the emotional manipulation around it, like just that was honestly for my youngest years, like all I could think about and focus on when I was at church is just how much I hated my body in this dress up that I had to do. So that was that was like a huge piece for me of like feeling like that wasn't a space for me. Yeah, and then also just the way that it panned out And I mean this might hark back to some episodes before with Crush, but just like the.
Speaker 3:So my, my mom is a child survivor of sexual abuse And so she was always very on top of where I was And another thing that felt uncomfortable was that there was like one specific older man at church that would always hug for too long Yeah, all the little girls, and I hated it And I knew that that was part of it. What made me his target was how I was dressed, like I could just feel it. So I knew that and I felt that and it's like I already resent and hate what I feel like. And then there's also this other thing that's happening, yeah, and it's just like all of these elements coming together. That was like this isn't, this isn't who I am, and I also know this isn't safe.
Speaker 2:You felt like you were being preyed upon. Yeah, yeah, and my mom.
Speaker 3:So my mom was probably on the crush end of the spectrum. That shit ended.
Speaker 2:Yeah, fast Yeah.
Speaker 3:Where, like she, she cut it Yeah.
Speaker 2:I will say I feel I'm very, very hyper visual too, like, and I think that obviously a huge part of it is being assaulted as a young child all the way up until like adulthood. But I'm like a goddamn night hawk when it comes to my kid. So I get, i get your mom.
Speaker 3:You see why she was Yeah.
Speaker 2:She was there and like Yeah.
Speaker 3:My parents weren't like quite in the and like I don't think the culture was quite in the progressive of like let kids initiate, touch or whatever yet. So it was still very much like the social etiquette of like we're at church, yeah.
Speaker 4:You have to be polite.
Speaker 3:You have to give people hugs and you have to shake their hands. So she was still like on the like you hug people at church but it was like the that was too long, so yeah, and like people are uncomfortable And so that got cut out pretty quick, yeah, but just so much of that. I felt that so, so deeply.
Speaker 1:I'm not a very I'm not always like super good at describing how I'm feeling or whatever, like putting things into words, But like as you're saying that I was literally like, yeah, that that's a perfect way to describe a lot of how I felt growing up And like Cause you had to wear like.
Speaker 2:Uniforms He had With the one Yeah.
Speaker 1:I mean before I get cause I have some stuff to say about that too. But before I get into that, like see, cause my experience is a little different, like I still identify as a woman and my like pronouns are she, her. So I think, like before I get into my side of things, like CJ, like I, just if you wanted to add to that or say anything about how, like your feelings on that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, i mean, i guess I haven't thought about it much, but now that I am thinking about it, my, my parents made us wear, like my sister and I wear dresses, every single, to every single service, like without exception, and I also hated it so much And I, ever since that, like I left, i have not worn a dress since. But it's like being so uncomfortable just for the sake of who knows, like my yeah, and it was just so frustrating because it's like I wanted to crawl out of my skin and my like, you know, like my parents would rather, you know, i, they knew, like I definitely expressed that Um, and it's very obviously like physically, um, but they'd rather, you know, be God honoring in that way, whatever, whatever that means, then, like have their child be comfortable in their own body, so that that makes you question, like where they're, where the priorities are. But do you want me to talk about like being, like being gay in the?
Speaker 1:truth. Yeah, like I actually am curious about your, your kind of same same question. Like you like you sounds like when you were about you said at community college, like you started to have those thoughts yourself of like I think that I'm queer, um and was. were those two separate experiences for you?
Speaker 4:I think mostly they were separate when, when I was younger, there were definitely moments where I think deep down I was like, because I I didn't want, like I had no interest in boys and I would totally try to get that as far away from me as possible, um, and I was always like a tomboy, but so there are definitely moments in my youth where I would think about it, but it is such a, it's so taboo and it's like as soon as it entered my mind it would leave, i would kick it out. You know, like cause that's what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:Yeah, god knows your thought, yeah Right.
Speaker 4:So if you spend, yeah, if you don't get that out right away, now you're sitting, now you're sitting, you know. And so I never. it was like that was the beginning of the repression, like such a deep repression, um, and I just never really thought about it. Um, i think I always. I people always say like I think I always knew, i think that I did know, but I was terrified, like I was absolutely terrified of that being a possibility, because I knew what the fallout of that would be. And so in my mind I'm like, if I can delay this or ignore it, i'm going to, because the other, you know, like facing up to it.
Speaker 3:It's going to have immediate repercussions.
Speaker 4:Oh, absolutely, and dramatic, and and that was that that did end up being the case. So, yeah, i never really voiced anything or thought about it. But after I had moved out, that's when people, that's when I was forced out of the closet, like I never got to come out and just was just exposed like out of the closet but I didn't end up talking to, that was like once that came out, everything ended. Like all the relationships with the people from church that I knew, everything that I had known, like that it's done because they I didn't couldn't even associate with them anymore, like they wouldn't talk to me. And I still, that moment, i still have not talked to so many of these, those people, yeah, same.
Speaker 2:I mean I didn't, it wasn't for anything else. then I decided to leave the church, but it was the same exact repercussions I feel like too. it's almost like any sort of major decision, sin, whatever they think, that is taking you away from the congregation like is an immediate dead. You know what I'm saying, cause I had that same fear of like wanting to leave the church, knowing I wasn't okay in the church and that like so much bad had happened. But even the thought of like when I make this choice like I'm no longer going to have friends or family is like terrifying Power of the devil?
Speaker 1:Oh, absolutely, And I think that's a big part of especially in communities that are more gatekeep-y where the outside world is where they like drill in your heads. So now, you don't, you're all you're, it's all intentional.
Speaker 2:Right, They basically like your relationships are ingrained in the church.
Speaker 3:So if you leave the church you're not just leaving the church.
Speaker 1:There's actually a series on who called leaving, leaving polygamy. I think it's called or something like that.
Speaker 2:I put that on my watch list.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's these three girls I think I like and don't like it cause it's like dramatized for the sake of TV, but it's these three girls that were. I want to say, if it's not Mormon, it's like something very similar. And actually there's a couple of girls that they break out that are Warren, jeff from.
Speaker 3:Yeah, pray and obey, yeah, and that guy.
Speaker 1:So they are like smuggling these people out of their polygamous communities, essentially, and it's like again, I think overdramatized for TV, but a very real situation still at the same time, and it's like you see, some of these people that are leaving, that are struggling cause they're like, well, i'm never going to talk to my parents again, and there's this one particular one that it was just so sad where the son leaves and the mom realizes that he had left, cause he left a note for every one of his brothers and for his sister and for his mom And he's mentioned like my brother's not going to care what I write in the snow, He's just going to hate me because he's ingrained in this thought process. But the mom calls him, she's crying and she's like why did you leave? Why did you leave?
Speaker 2:And he was just like mom, it's not you.
Speaker 1:I just don't believe in all of this anymore. And what am I supposed to do, whatever? And the mom starts like why does everyone, why does why do all my kids? why is everyone leaving me? And she was like. And then she starts getting upset and she was like I don't even believe in all of this, i don't want to go to church, like put your dad like and I have my kids, and like how do I? and then the mom starts like crying about how, like kind of agreeing with the son, but then saying that like how does she leave her husband in this community that she's basically like forced to be in? And she kind of like makes a nod to the fact that, like there's other wives that feel similar. They fucking trap you. That's what it is.
Speaker 2:I've literally had people recently say like, oh, we can't leave because, like, my grandchildren are in there, my grandpa's in there, my cousin's in there, my brother's in there, like they're literally staying in the church because their family's in there and they know if they make that choice to leave, that they'll lose their family, which makes zero sense. If you're talking about a loving God, yeah, like it makes absolute zero sense.
Speaker 1:This is CJ like do you think about those people a lot now, or is it just kind of feel like a different lifetime?
Speaker 2:Do you stalk them on the internet?
Speaker 4:Because I do, Yeah sometimes I I mean, it's just just everything changed so quickly And it was so dramatic.
Speaker 2:Like were you prepared? Like was it like one day you were in and the next day you were out Because that's how it was for me Like one day it was fine and like I was questioning, but then the next day, like everything, the shit hit the fan And you had a physical you that's not just like an emotional thing You had a physical needing of packing up your things and leaving that. Yes, i guess my question for CJ is like is it, was it like that, like that for?
Speaker 1:you, yeah, and like do you think about those people ever? Does it feel like a totally different lifetime to you? Like what are your thoughts?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it does feel. It does feel like a different. It's. It's so far removed from any any of the reality that I have now that feels like another. It feels like another version looking back at myself, because it doesn't. I don't even know who that is or what life that was, but it wasn't quite. It wasn't like on a dime. Everything changed, but they had my, my family had found out that I was gay and then told every single person that I know everybody, just like what like got him all like, went through the phone book Like under the guise of like let's make a prayer chain so that they can be.
Speaker 1:I just learned about a prayer again texted something that Jay to news travels so fast that way. Well, so like I didn't know what this was, Yeah. I already texted something like a memory that she had and then said something about a prayer chain and I was like pause, like we were texting with the prayer chain, and then Jay, and already had to like fill me in that it's basically like a excusable church gossip circle. Yeah, yeah, like a game of telephone for the church, if you will, yeah.
Speaker 4:And in that, in my world, that is like one of the worst things that you could possibly do, Like it feels right under murder as far as like the crimes that you could commit against them, and they take it very personally. You know. So, in that moment, like everyone knew, and I essentially like lost every single person that I had known and you know, I still I still talk to my family so they weren't gone, but in that moment, like everything was severed and it has not been the same and I haven't talked to so many of those people and they won't talk to me like they don't, they want like nothing to do with me. You know So it's just like the friends I had grown up with. For 10 years I have never heard from them again.
Speaker 3:Yeah, Those friends that you prioritized over people right School and elsewhere.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, because you couldn't let the centers in. Yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry that you went through that but I am glad that I hope that you, you know, feel good about the people that are on do now and I'm definitely glad that we met And, like I'm so, like I'm grateful for all the friends that I have.
Speaker 4:Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, i am so grateful and it's just, it's a whole different circle, um, and I actually think the rugby community really really helps me, because I I was like starting to get into that when this was all happening and I don't know where it would be, honestly, without it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i think that I think people spend a lot of time talking, talking about the toxic rugby community aspects. A lot like that gets, i think, a lot of air time from people when they talk about rugby, and maybe this was just my experience in college because we had, like, numerous incidents where we had to deal with like the team getting suspended Rugby whole, like just like life changing thing that I like I feel like I've done in my life was like joining rugby and it's brought like so much.
Speaker 1:Like. So so far, like have I had bad experiences in rugby? Sure, but like the good that's rugby is brought in my life and like I feel like this is the overwhelming consensus for most people that I talk to the overwhelming good that rugby has brought into my life far outweighs anything that it has ever done. Like it has brought me friends that are so diverse, like I have gotten more exposure to people from different walks of life that have like taught me so many things. I have gotten people that love me for exactly who I am and no more and no less. Like I have had just my fucking fiancee. Like we would have never met if it weren't for rugby and like that's one thing I'm always really proud of rugby for.
Speaker 1:I feel like rugby it's not one of those things where it's like you got to be a tall, skinny bitch to be good or whatever. Like it's just like the most diverse group of athletic and unathletic like I've had. I've actually had some people in my life that have been like the most unathletic fucking people I've ever met. But they're like really randomly, really good at rugby, right, like it's just like anybody could come. This is our advertisement. We play for you to cues. Yeah, if you're in the Syracuse area.
Speaker 3:For as diverse as it is. I got to say all of my straight friends I've met through rugby, so it really is diverse, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:There's like this, there's this whole stigma that and I'm sure we're propagating it right now by having like three out of the four of us being big old gays on the podcast, but like speaking right now, but I have so many straight friends that, like I've gone to their weddings or whatever, but they're all from rugby, like we're not all just a bunch of lesbians and no, nobody's trying to convince you to be a lesbian either, but but yeah, so anyway, sorry.
Speaker 2:You know it's two, i feel and maybe, like CJ will agree is so. I mean, it was very, very traumatic like what, how we had to leave the church, but, like with rugby, it's almost like that was given back, like so much of you, so much of your life was taking, like taken away from you in that moment, but now it's like you have that friend, like that friendship, that community, that family, like again, i mean, for me that's how I felt, because that definitely felt very alone for so many years and people didn't understand and I couldn't explain it and it went through a lot, but then like kind of finding I mean I also played roller derby and I feel somewhat about that with roller derby, but not as much as rugby is like like my heart now.
Speaker 1:I love that you say that, because I played a lot of sports in my life, like I played soccer, i played lacrosse, i played softball, i played basketball. There is this weird thing about rugby yeah where it's like you are ready to go out there yeah, put your body to a beating, which is like whatever when you're 20 and a young and like CJ and not whatever.
Speaker 4:When you're the rest of us anymore.
Speaker 1:Not again has to recover, but like There is just something else about the sport because of the nature of it and like even just like what you do when you're playing rugby, like when somebody goes into a tackle and you need to be right behind them and over top of them to like protect them in the ball and whatever, to like keep possession. It's like that mindset that that puts you into creates a bond. I feel like that's a lot different than any other sport that I've ever played and I feel like it's part of what creates that really good connection with your teammates because, like I said, i played a lot of sports in my life but I've never had the relationships come out of a sport like I did rugby.
Speaker 1:I agree, yeah and I continued to play like lacrosse in college for a bit too, and like the culture surrounding that, not at all the same either. So I don't know. I think rugby is like almost like the perfect thing for you to have found, i think, because it does have that like family.
Speaker 2:I said that too.
Speaker 2:Like so when I started playing roller derby, it was literally a couple months after my mom had died and so I used to say, like roller derby like saved me, because it was that was like the worst time of my entire life.
Speaker 2:And then I found rugby like right, when Piper and Piper's dad and I had broke up and I was like rugby like entirely saved my life, like I honestly do not know if I could have survived emotionally and physically what I was going through, like during that breakup and being on my own and just the whole shenanigans of everything else that was going on in my life. Like I mean, even with COVID and everything like literally rugby like saved my life. Like I feel like when I go out there and play with you guys, like I'm like I have to protect you, i have to protect you, i have to protect you, i have to protect you, i have to protect you because I feel like they, you guys, have given so much to me. And like my personal life, like I mean Piper looks at all of you guys like true family, like she didn't give a shit about, like she didn't even know who her cousins are, like she has zero idea, but she knows who all of you guys are. You know what I mean, so absolutely in the other.
Speaker 4:The other aspect of it was at that time it was such a. It was such a struggle because I was still struggling with my you know, sexuality and my identity and so, unsure of everything, and for that to happen, it just like really shakes you and I was like, is it, should I just repress this so that I don't lose everything that I have ever known and all the people that I love, you know? and so it was such a formative time and I was now around these people that were just who they were, unashamedly, and it was just normal. Like it nobody. And to me, like now it's just the, it's just, you know, the norm. But at that time that was like absolutely revolutionary. And I have never met a group of people like that, like everybody. Like, oh, you guys are just, oh, everybody, oh yeah, i know that, yeah yeah, no, i guess this is.
Speaker 1:This is something that I realized much earlier on than I think most people realize it, simply because somebody thanked me. I had a friend in college. That was like dealing with coming out and when I was in college, like you know, i was gay, like I've like I've been a lesbian and it's like not something that I've hidden about myself ever since it really became public knowledge in high school.
Speaker 1:So I was always just you know, just that, like everybody knew and you knew, looking at me and whatever like this was, even before I had short hair, it was just, i guess I just, you know, exude the guy yeah so she was like a friend of mine and like she would, like you know, borrow my clothes sometimes or whatever, and that was fine and and I remember her saying something to me just like in passing but it was one of those things that I was like I'm gonna hold on to that like she just like thanked me for like being myself because it showed her, like she said, made a comment of like it showed me like how to be myself and it was like thanks, like, and it's just like you don't realize, like how important being authentic is to yourself but how important it is to help other people find their way. And I think that that's one thing that's really that is really awesome about rugby, because it's not something that's exclusive to our team. Like if you find a rugby team that's not like that people are just like that. Those people, like the whole rugby community is like those girls, like they're that team, like like that is considered like appalling in the rugby community and you know, i I think I think it's awesome that you know I'm happy you were able to find that.
Speaker 1:I think, for for me, growing up like you talking about the, the clothing aspect of it, like I never really I always hated dresses, like I knew that, but I never really really thought about it until, like you were just saying that and it's like I'm gonna tell this story right now and my mom's gonna like have a crisis about it and text me apologizing, like in like a 85 paragraph message. So, mom, for the love of God, like please don't feel bad, and also like I, you don't need to send me an eight mile long apology, but my mom did that whole thing. She got married to her husband now, so it was like her her second marriage and I was in sophomore year, college, i think, and you know she said will you wear a dress at the wedding for me? and I was just kind of like it's like I just really want you and your sister to like wear it, like just for me, like just be the peacemaker.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so I was just like you know, of course like I was just like sure, and then it's like now I gotta do my hair and now I have got somebody that has to put makeup on yeah, and that's that and the other. And then it's not just the dress wearing it's, while you're wearing the dress that everybody that feels needs say like see, don't you feel beautiful, like?
Speaker 1:yeah don't you look so beautiful and it's just like fuck off. That's what I feel like saying. I feel like telling you to fuck right off right now. And it's like you know she's got the picture that she really loves from the wedding and there's sunsets in the background. I was like standing, you know, like one of like standing. It was just picture me and she's like oh, this is my favorite picture and it's like I love that for her. I love that she has a favorite picture. I love that. That is good memories for her. But I look at that picture and it's just like you know that doesn't feel like that's not me. That doesn't feel like me.
Speaker 1:And it's like growing up it's I same is. I mean, i didn't have brothers, but I had kids I grew up with that were practically brothers that lived down the street. I spent every day of my summer with them and we went down the street and we played football all summer long and that's where I was happy. You know, i'm not happy when I have to put a fucking white dress on for First Communion. Like it, like I remember being a child and hating, like six years old and hating putting on a dress.
Speaker 1:Like I'm not saying every person's gay experience is the same. I'm not saying like there are people that realize that they have an interest in that way later in life. That doesn't mean that like you always were, like I'm not trying to say one shoe fits all right, but like I knew for a long time and I was never comfortable in that. And that doesn't mean and for me that doesn't mean that I don't identify as a woman. I just am present more masculinly I guess, but like I just I'm not. Never in my life will anyone ever convince me to put a dress on again. Like it just feel like that crawling out of your skin. Comment CJ like holy fuck. And it sucks that the movement of people trying to let their kids more freely just express themselves in whatever path that they happen to follow, instead of like trying to convince your kid what is lady like or what isn't lady like oh my god but instead of like doing that to your kid and just like letting them find their way on their own, like is being considered fucking bad.
Speaker 1:Parenting nowadays is just no idea.
Speaker 2:It's just yeah, well, i mean, out of all of us here, i'm the one with a kid and she happens to be. I have three children. Well, yeah, your puppy dogs. But like with Piper so many of these conversations and growing up the way I grew up I'm I don't ever want to put her through the trauma of the things I went through, which was very, very gender controlling. I don't even want to say conforming, i want that it was controlled. Yeah, um, but we have these conversations all the time and I'm just like she'll be like, well, why? and I'll be like some white man, yeah literally that's my response.
Speaker 2:Like mommy, why is it bad if you? why is it un-lady, like if you swear? and I'm like it's not, like that's just somebody said that one day and it's it's. It's a made up rule. So now, like women shouldn't swear, or you got to dot your eyes, cross your T's and it's so hard because there's the majority of the people that look at the decisions I'm making and I'm like you're a shitty parent for telling her that, but like am I?
Speaker 1:but like, let me tell you something though you're not because I'm gonna tell you something right now in this like is shitty to share, because I don't want anyone to feel like some type of way about like my dad or anything like that. My dad, my dad and I are like best friends. He's the best. But when I, autumn, and I are getting married, we're thinking about the wedding, talking about you know what songs we want, the wedding and sitting there and I was having conversation with her the one day and I said this is me as an adult, as a 32 year old adult, that am, for the most part, very uncompromising about who I am and what I do, and you know all of that and you guys know that about me. This shit is so ingrained in our heads about what is accepted that this came out of my mouth. I said to Autumn. I was like, yeah, i was thinking about maybe for the father daughter dance, like maybe I'll do a quick change and just toss a dress on for my dad Wow To make him feel more comfortable.
Speaker 1:It's not that I want to be careful with that because it's like it's not that he would be uncomfortable dancing with me in a suit. We have done that at other weddings.
Speaker 2:Is it like the tradition, part of it?
Speaker 1:I just think that, like I was always his little like I was his first, and that's not to say anything about my sister, like whatever.
Speaker 1:That's a whole other topic. It's not to say anything about my sister or anything. But I was his first and we went through a lot together. Like we went through my parent, like my sister was alive, but like I was the one that went through my parents divorce, like I was in the middle of all of that. We went through a lot together and same with my mom, but in a very different way. So where me and my mom have a really great relationship now, but at that time of the divorce we were more adversaries, where me and my dad were like, going through a lot of things to it felt more together then.
Speaker 1:So it just came from this place of like I think it would make him really happy And I do still believe that. But at the same time, like like Autumn looked at me and she said absolutely not. And I was like. And at first I like was offended because I got defensive And I was like who are you to say? like what I'm going to do with my dad and the father daughter dance. And she was like. And then she like explained and she was like, are you going to be comfortable in a dress.
Speaker 1:And I was like, no, but like it would make my dad really happy. And she was like it is your day. And she was like if this was something that you wanted to do, that you were going to be comfortable in, that you weren't going to look back at those pictures and just fucking cringe, i would support you. But that's not what you're doing right now. And I just like had this moment of like damn, like you're right, like I'm just like subscribing to like this thing that like I'm told that I'm supposed to do. And yeah, it was just like. Sometimes I think about that and like I literally get nauseous of like, like I was considering doing that at my way And like you know what the thing is too That's funny is like I would have been uncomfortable. Anybody that's close with me watching that probably also would have been very uncomfortable.
Speaker 1:Because they know me and it's like it's not that my dad doesn't know me, It's just like I think it's one of those things that, as a parent growing up in the time that you know he grew up in Whereas like now, things are a lot more progressive and whatever I think that you have this idea. You have your first kid and it's your daughter and you have all these ideas of like what it's going to be like when they grow up and they get married someday And you imagine how all that is. And I think I was trying to like in my head, like give him some of that.
Speaker 1:And then I just like have this moment of like, panic, yeah. And then, like you know, came back to reality and I was like like to be clear, like my dad loves me and is going to be fucking. He likes he loves autumn, like my whole family loves autumn. He's going to be happy and cry like a baby on my wedding. Just the same Like so this is not me saying that he wouldn't have done those things, but it was just like I don't know why. I was just having this moment of like, wanting to like make it really special, and I had to like come back to reality and be like it's special, because it's special and because it's your wedding day, like you don't have to do anything that you don't want to do for that, But yeah, so, if CJ, if you got married, do you think your parents would come to the wedding?
Speaker 4:No, and they've told me that to my face, and and that's the case for the majority of my family And I would even venture to say almost all of them. So that is like it's hard to wrestle with because I think that maybe someday I might want to get married, but then it's like this special day that no one is. You know, like half of the reason it's special is because the people that you love are there, but like they won't be, it's very explicit because that would be them like accepting Saying it was okay.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's what I think about that too. Like if I decided to marry a woman, like what would my dad come to the wedding? and it would be a hard, no, hard, no. Oh yeah, hard, no, yep, yep. Even like say, if it was like now, right, like I already have Piper, this side of the other thing, hard, no, Would your families acknowledge your partner? I personally don't think so. I mean, I was barely allowed on the property with a man.
Speaker 1:So I've dated some people where I was strictly the roommate for multiple years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, i think I for sure think that that would be the case in my life. for sure. I mean they like barely accepted with the tattoos. So you know what I'm saying.
Speaker 1:Like I find that as a good repellent nowadays, though.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Like I have, since I got like the hand tats. Yeah, people to be scared, Dude, it's like the. I could see that. You know you could see the Mormons coming from a mile away, because they got like the suit, they got the whole, they got their outfit, they got their fit.
Speaker 2:The blue pants The white tag, the white tag, brother Joe Yep, and by the landhand Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's like I could see your. I could see your get up from a mile away as you're coming towards me, and it's like I actually have seen numerous times where they're like walking in our direction and then they get closer And they see, like like my hands or like put together that, like, oh, boobs, yeah, short hair And I would literally just be like buddy, i get that. You got to get through your spiel and this is what you're taught and what you're supposed to do. So I'm not going to be mean to you, but like I'm gay, like that's not changing And that usually is like a 180 and they turn around because you can't be saved from that, right, like like I mean you might be able to pray the gateway.
Speaker 2:Well, you might. I mean there are churches that like there are people that send their kids off to fucking conversion camp.
Speaker 1:Like that's very real, and they brought the books, yeah. I did bring the books, yeah, so tell us about that, so you know, so your parents, i mean, you have, you have a relationship with your family.
Speaker 4:Yeah, i do. That has been, that has been a journey for sure, and it's been, i don't say, like six years now. So a lot has happened since the beginning of that whole, that whole event to now, but it's it's, it's very complex. I think that they, they love me enough to whatever, whatever that means, but they, they want me in their life, but only the parts that they.
Speaker 2:Yeah, find Dean worthy, right Right.
Speaker 4:Like my, my father has told me to never speak, never speak of it. And so, like, like my, anybody who I'm with or you know, i can't, like, i'll never bring them around, yeah, and I haven't. I haven't really pushed that that much because it's a balance, you know, like how much am I willing to sacrifice of myself to have these people in my life?
Speaker 2:First is the argument with your family.
Speaker 4:Right, yeah, or you know the the stopping of, you know of contact, but I have a whole stack of books that they gave me over the years. They're, they're down, they're down here Just like, and they, they'll, they'll give them to me and be like Hey, can you read this?
Speaker 1:Seriously Like though.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah. They'll be like please, when's the last?
Speaker 1:time that. When's the last time you got a book?
Speaker 4:I want to say probably a year ago, it's like oh yeah, well, i forget.
Speaker 1:You're young, i guess, so 17, like really isn't that long ago. If it makes you feel better.
Speaker 2:I still get at least once a year, a Jesus book, and it's been. I'm 20 years out, oh no.
Speaker 4:So that doesn't make me feel it's not going to stop.
Speaker 2:It's not going to stop. They're going to be trying to pray that gateway for like ever Yeah.
Speaker 4:And the one thing I wanted to bring up besides just the books is when I first, when they first found out, um, when I finally talked to them again after so like a period of me just like totally freaking out and not talking to them they were like can you, can you do something for us? And at that point I had already devastated them to no end and I would have done anything to like get back in their good graces, the slightest bit you know. And that was a different version of me. I definitely have grown a lot since then, but they were like can you go to this Christian counselor?
Speaker 1:and- Oh, the Christian counselor. Yes, i had one to talk about that last day.
Speaker 4:I knew that was going to make them not make them happy, but at least do something. Give them a little bit of hope, like lessen their grief, you know.
Speaker 1:Or maybe make them somewhat happy with you or something Right, right.
Speaker 4:And so I said yeah, and I would go. I went for like a month or two, it wasn't really all that long, but I would sit there and this like Christian counselor would try to figure out why I was gay, like what was wrong in my life, what happened, what went wrong to where I was now gay. And you know, at that point being so unsure of myself, like that's incredibly damaging And I remember like leaving those sessions and just like having the worst thoughts.
Speaker 1:Well, because I feel like you're to put this timeline together. it sounds like that this was in the time where you were still trying to figure yourself out, And so now you're having somebody coming from an angle that's not in your best interest, trying to discredit your feelings Yeah. Yeah, amongst other things, i'm sure.
Speaker 4:Yeah. And so I had like suicidal ideations because it was like the darkest point of my life And I had to tell my mother like I have to stop, like I have to stop, and it's like at what point, you know, i think at some point the maternal instinct take over and it's like, okay, well, i'd rather have, you know, a child that's alive and gay than like, well, you, have that experience.
Speaker 1:but like and I'm glad that you did- Right. Like obviously, like I'm glad that you're sitting here, i'm glad you're talking about this, But so many people that maternal instinct does not kick in Nope. And that's so fucking sad that you would rather or I shouldn't even say maternal like parental, because there's, like you know, father involved here a lot, but like there are so many people that would rather their kid be dead than gay 100%, and it's like what the fuck is wrong with you.
Speaker 2:I don't get it, like I can't even, like I try to think, like is there anything that Piper could do that would make me cut her off, like that? And I mean it would have to be like heroin, you know, like.
Speaker 1:I don't even think that. Well, even that, even that situation where it's like I need to provide tough, love for my child because I want them to be okay. That's not like that's still coming from an angle of like I want my child to be well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Like I can't. like. if she was like mom, i want to date a girl, i'd be like okay, mom, i need a boy. Okay, mom, i don't feel like I'm a girl.
Speaker 1:Okay, mom, like I can't imagine any of it being like nah like if you love your kid, don't even want them to be their most authentic well self, Like, like, why, why, why are you so concerned about your kid being the person that you want them to be than the person that they are?
Speaker 4:And that's the point where I think I generally have a good view of both sides because I, like, i know how they think and I know why they think that And in their reality. Everything that they've done and said to me, like said to me, is all justified because they are. They are genuinely, genuinely believe they're doing the most loving thing they can do.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, because I think they're saving you or trying to save you, or something. Is that what you're?
Speaker 1:saying Like from eternal, yeah, save myself, and so did Hitler, like you know what I'm saying, like yeah, but I guess, like CJ's point, like you know, we're coming from an angle of, if you're trying to understand it, quote, unquote, like it's just a totally different reality And for them, they truly, to their, in their very core, think that they're doing the most loving thing And I obviously, like they, has been an incredibly, like, incredibly awful journey, you know.
Speaker 4:But it's just like, it's just a whole different view, and I'm not saying it's right, obviously, and I don't, i don't agree with it, but I can see that they, i have empathy, yeah, because it's just like it's not even. We're not even on the same plane.
Speaker 1:No, you're not. you're not. you're not operating from the same baseline. Like and that's good that you realize that Like there's times where I feel like in my life just having different opinions with people, like sometimes you just have to recognize that Like we're not operating from the same baseline right now.
Speaker 1:I mean, they teach you that when you're like debating, like in a debate setting, like they teach you to like find find common and then go from there So like the fact that you're able to recognize that, like finding common is probably impossible, probably saves you a lot of heartache and and just you know- yeah, And that's eventually what it, what it is Like.
Speaker 4:I'm not ever going to agree with you and you're not ever going to agree with me, Like neither of us. neither party will budge. So it's like can we, can we reconcile with that and still have a relationship, You know?
Speaker 1:Are you at least able to like enjoy your time with them So, or is it just? is it just? is spending time with them like for the most part, anxiety ridden?
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's a really that's a really complex question, because I love, i love them so much like, and I want to be around them, but I can only be a fraction of myself and also, like they, they don't, like it's going to be, not, like no part of my identity is something that they would, they would respect.
Speaker 4:So it's like constantly like using my, like my birth name and like she and her, and like that I can only really, i can only really handle that for so long and it just like totally dissociate. So it, it varies how much time I can spend with them, but the last, like, the last thing I want to do is not have them. You know, have them around. It's really just a balance And I'm, you know it's. I'm still working on what that is, but like the boundaries that I have set in the past couple of years have helped with that, because before I would just take any sort of disrespect just so I could be like I would take any of their comments and any of their their hateful Thank you Take any attention, even if it was negative, because it was yeah, i would just.
Speaker 4:I would just take it so I could be in their presence. And after a while that was just. You know, that was taking too much out of me and it was making me hate myself. So I had to set some boundaries as far as, like, how much I'm willing to take. And now I'm very happy to report that like I know who I am and I like don't take that that disrespect anymore.
Speaker 2:Good good.
Speaker 4:Yeah, i've shifted the relationship a little bit, but for so long it's like how much am I willing to sacrifice to have this, you know. And now you know, you just get to a point where it's just like you kind of take it or leave it, like I, i want to be in your life and I want to have a relationship with you. But if you can't like, if you can't handle what is my reality and who I am, then like I can't make you.
Speaker 2:You know, and like the crazy part too is you're willing to accept who they are, what they believe in and their whole like lifestyle, but they can't accept any part of your lifestyle. So in reality, you have to remind yourself that you're the bigger person in this whole situation, because if you can love someone unconditionally, even if you do not support what they believe in, that's like the real win. You know, i had to like break that down to myself after several years, like I love and support these people, even though they're absolutely crazy and super abusive. But if they can't love me, that's on them. Like I had that conversation with my dad, like if I died today I know that I love you unconditionally, no matter what you believe in and how you're, like your belief system, but you cannot say the same towards me. So you need to figure that out. So like remind yourself of that. Like you love them unconditionally, no matter what they're doing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're showing more of that love that they say that they have than they actually are, which is funny because that's usually how these types of things go when people are being religious fanatics and shit like that.
Speaker 1:It's like they're preaching this like unconditional love that God has, but really it's all so conditional. It's all so conditional And so is all of their love is also conditional And that sucks And I'm sad. Like I said, I mean I had my hard times when I was growing up but like I didn't deal with anything like that And I'm sorry that you went through, like both of you, like the shit that you guys went through.
Speaker 4:And for anyone anyone listening is going through it Like it's not. People will always say like, oh, they'll come around or it'll get better And that's our way of comforting you And it's probably coming from a good place And that's not necessarily everybody's reality.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think that's a really, that's a really good thing that you bring up, And that's okay.
Speaker 4:It's just. I'm not saying it gets easier, but you find ways.
Speaker 2:You change, you learn, you grow. You find other people that become your family, your friends, like when you were like I don't know if I'll ever get married because, like the important people won't be there, but you'll have. you'll have. yeah. I was like yo, i'll be your mom. This is all I wanna walk in online.
Speaker 3:You got a dad right here bro.
Speaker 2:Daddy's here, dad and mom, but like it'll be about you, right, it's not necessarily about your blood family, but it'll be about the family you have in that moment. You know, because there definitely was times where I didn't know if my dad would show up or not when I was getting married either time.
Speaker 1:And I Yeah, i was gonna ask you when you mentioned, when CJ said that their parents wouldn't show up, i was gonna ask you The first time for sure If you were. Second wedding, if you were second wedding.
Speaker 2:The second time I absolutely wasn't sure, because it was from a divorce.
Speaker 1:Yes, that's why I was gonna ask.
Speaker 2:So, but no, it was a little bit better, surprisingly So. But him, like we've come along like, took 20 years. You know what I mean. So, and I mean I had I didn't speak with my dad for several years and came in like guns blazing, like this is who I am. You cannot like instill to this day like he'll get Jesus on me and I just shoot it down Like so he kind of knows. So it may or may not get better.
Speaker 2:Like I said, i have a lot of people I don't talk to that were like a huge part of my life. But I realized the people that are around me now are the ones that matter. Like they were put in my life for a reason And I went through the things I went through also for a reason, because I know that I'll never raise my children in the way I was raised Or I'm hoping that I can be that example to other people to tell them like you know, this isn't okay that you do this to your family or your friends or listen, i've been through that. Like you can turn to me, like I'm here for you. So there are reasons like that you're going through this, that you can be that for someone else and realize how strong you are for going through it, cause not a lot of people can handle that.
Speaker 3:I mean, I think a lot of this just makes me think about like all the closeted people currently and historically that are just like trapped in the church because the loss of that community would be the end of everything they know. Yeah but also like their lifeline.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, like everything, yeah.
Speaker 3:And my, so my great uncle. He was a. He was single his whole life. He passed away in 2016,. My uncle Ted And just like my mom, was always like there's something about uncle Ted. There's something about uncle Ted And like I felt that too And he was my Godfather And so I felt that like connection to him inherently, i think because of that. But he and he always just like took a little bit more interest in like me over my brothers, and I think it's because of like coming out at a young age And you know, he passed away and then my grandmother took his house again. She was estranged from all of us, but when she passed away this last year and we like fully cleaned out his house, found his rainbow pen and all of his westward magazines with like gay stuff in it and a gay man's guide to America that lists from like the 60s and 70s lists of like in every state, in every city. Here are the bars, here's where to go, here's the underground.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, that's like pre-internet.
Speaker 3:So he like had his own like He had that And to know, and to know not just like, oh, he realized it later in life and whatever.
Speaker 3:Like no, he had it when he was a young man And just, yeah, like my mom would talk about, he had these, like he's a veteran, and the friends that he met in France when he was there And like they would send letters back and forth And that was a gay married man that he was like writing letters with And it was like almost feel like, you know, he was either part of that community or maybe like their third or like just something where, like he could not, he never told, as far as I'm aware, anyone in our family, including me, which, like I had been out and like all of that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, he never told any of his family, but he so clearly had this other life And I so much would want to know from him like, was that? like out of shame? Was that out of fear? Like what stopped him from? I mean me, coming out was not smooth. It was turbulent for many years, But once things were much smoother and my parents clearly accept who I am. Like makes me so sad to think that he still didn't feel in some way safe to come out to my family And his sister who, again, she was someone who supported me like biblically supported me in coming out, and like he still somehow didn't find the safety to balance that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean I feel like this will loop into the state of the world today, but it's kind of a scary place for just about anybody at this moment, you know, with all these crazy laws, And I mean I know we want to touch on that.
Speaker 1:There's very much a war on the trans community right now, like an open war on the trans community right now, and from my perspective it's very like you know we're next kind of thing Like.
Speaker 3:Always has been.
Speaker 1:Yes So, but I want to know, like obviously I'm appalled. Yeah, you know, i support you guys. I think that goes without saying and everybody, like I mean I support people just being who they are. I really I cannot wrap my head around like why people give a shit so much about things that truly do not impact their day. Like I think that these people have to talk themselves into the ways that it impacts their day half the time. Like the thing with kids in schools and not being able to say, if you have a husband in some states, if you're a man like that wasn't, that was literally doing zero things to impact your child You're really just trying to talk yourself into fucking obscure reasons at this point. So for me, like those are the reactions that I'm having because at like, I'm curious, like as people that are a part of that community, like how are you feeling? Like what are your thoughts at this point? Cause that is a lens I cannot speak from.
Speaker 3:Yeah, i mean, i think it's. it's always been scary to be a trans person and vulnerable And just you know it. really it sucks because it's like there was like an edge forward and like almost like you could see like the end where it was like maybe I don't always have to be afraid. And then now it's this immediate push back.
Speaker 1:I feel like it was so quick too, like I feel like you got. you got like that step forward and it's like before the second foot could hit the ground, somebody yanked it back. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, which is almost what it's like going into a restroom sometimes.
Speaker 4:So it's pretty accurate.
Speaker 3:Get that second foot in there and you get yed it out.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and the response has been not only like hateful but aggressive Yeah, like physically.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 4:I think that's the scary part.
Speaker 1:That is the really scary part is that ever since like really that whole like I don't want to get too political, but ever since that whole January 6th thing, where things really did become openly violent in a way that was so shocking That extremist belief group like that that motivated other people that believe extreme things to think that responding in that way has become more acceptable, cause that's really like we're in a place where nobody's really. I mean, there's a couple of people that have gotten punished for that whole thing, but what really happened after all of that? Yeah, nothing.
Speaker 3:I think and I think this is maybe where our experiences differ is that January 6th was a clear demarcation in our country's history. I haven't seen any more or less acts of violence toward me, and I've only, i would say, at the core of any physical, not like verbal. Physical violence that I have experienced in my life has always had a basis in gender, and that was happening long before January 6th.
Speaker 1:So I agree with you. I guess what I'm saying more of and maybe I didn't articulate this well is that people are more okay with verbally being open about those things in a more public space than they were before. Not necessarily that there is more or less of it, but that there is this idea that it's more yeah.
Speaker 1:And not even yeah, i'm not saying that any level of violence has necessarily changed. What I'm saying is, more so that, like, the way that that violence is perceived amongst those people is that like it was almost like like, oh, this is a free for all now kind of thing where people are more vocal about being hateful.
Speaker 2:Did any of you even see on the Syracuse Pride page for the parade there was like hundreds of hateful comments when they announced the date. Really, yeah, i think I have a screenshot of it somewhere, so I just was like flabbery-acid that it was even happening.
Speaker 1:You're seeing this all over the place, where we're actually taking a million steps back all over the place, like I'm like a huge hockey fanatic, a hockey does. they do Pride Month and they do Pride Night at every arena, usually every year. up to this point, every fucking player would wear the Pride jerseys for warmups. This year, all of a sudden now certain players are opting out of wearing the jersey and citing their religious beliefs as the reasons as to why that they are not going to wear the jerseys.
Speaker 1:and at first it started with people from Russia because there were some laws that were passed in Russia which, by the way, this was just a whopping excuse, because none of those laws really were endangering anyone.
Speaker 1:But I'm also like not gonna speak and say that, like if somebody really does fear for their family, that they should put on a Pride jersey or whatever. But then it started to be like just random other white dudes and the fucking on the team that would just be like, well, due to my Catholic beliefs or whatever, i don't have a problem with anybody, but I also have a problem with it. Like the statements made no sense. And then, in certain cases, some teams opted out of wearing warmup jerseys on Pride Night as to because they were concerned for singling out that player, not concerned for the fact that you are supposed to have this hockey is for everybody movement of pride and saying hockey is inclusive, like. all that this all happened this year tells me is that we are at the exact same spot that we were 10 years ago. Like we have gone so far back and you could see it in so many places. Like it's not just about hockey, it's not just about like.
Speaker 3:I mean, and there's the very real, like there's this movement, there's Bud Light, which we talked about while I was before the Yeah.
Speaker 1:so the whole Bud Light thing, with now everybody fucking hates Bud Light cause they allegedly made rainbow cans They didn't, for anybody that wants to go do a little bit of reading. They made one fucking custom can that they sent to Dylan Mulvaney to celebrate their one year of being, you know, of womanhood and coming out and being them. They're authentic selves. One can one?
Speaker 3:can I mean in all of that? just like rainbow capitalism, that's always front and center news. But the bigger news is around, like Tennessee and Arkansas, there's a lot of Southern states that have removed even the right, with parental approval, for trans youth to transition or to even go on hormone blockers to delay puberty. That right is removed And if parents are still supporting those, parents can go.
Speaker 2:Right Taking their kids away.
Speaker 3:And now even Missouri is one update to say no adult can make that decision. It is now illegal for anyone of any age to hormonally transition. So now there's a crisis in Missouri and trans people just like trying to get creative with each other of like how do we get hormones?
Speaker 1:Well, this becomes dangerous too. What are some?
Speaker 3:non-trans reasons that I can be prescribed my medication, like all of these things. where it's dangerous, well, it's dangerous. You're taking away someone's medical and individual rights.
Speaker 1:Well, and from the perspective of like, i don't think that people realize that like this isn't. Like this is far beyond like a dresser or a pair of pants.
Speaker 4:Right, it's a matter of life and death. Yeah, for some people like this is this is somebody feeling.
Speaker 1:this is about people feeling happy in there every day, like I, just I cannot understand. I will never understand the need to just control. And that's what it is, it's all about control Yep.
Speaker 1:And I don't think, you know, i think that, especially for a lot of older people, it's something that they don't really understand. So, like I do want to make sure that we like, highlight this, like for somebody that does not feel comfortable being referred to as the gender that they're prescribed at birth, like this is about feeling like yourself and feeling like happy with the person you look at in the morning, in the mirror. Like this is beyond, like it's really beyond like pronouns, whatever else, like that. I mean that's something that's like a hot topic because it's just something that you do in your day to day, but it's so. It's so beyond that. Like this is this like what if somebody woke up and told you like, like you don't, you know, you don't get to be a mom anymore?
Speaker 2:Like. That's part of who you are.
Speaker 1:Like you don't get to be a mom anymore today, like it's part of your identity and it's like your growth in that, as part of who you are. And I just think that people narrow-mindedly like think like you know those politicians and they want to talk about, well, do you have a penis or do you have a vagina? And it's like me answering that question proves some like ridiculous point that you think you're making. but you're actually like missing the plot completely. Like you are entirely missing the plot. You are seeking an answer that you know what the answer you're going to get is to narrate some fucking garbage Agenda Yeah agenda that you have.
Speaker 1:But like and and unfortunately, so many people just sit and listen to people like that and think it is so black and white And like, i hope that like this conversation inspires people to like, look a little deeper, because it's, it's beyond that, it's not about genitals and all of that And I just don't, yeah, like yeah, it is tough And really, if you wrap it all around it goes back to religious beliefs.
Speaker 2:They say it doesn't, but it's like 17 fingers pointed retours the Bible Like there's no other like there is no other reason. Besides, that book is telling you something, because there's no scientific data. There's nothing else, nothing in this entire world, that says being trans or being gay or whatever is harmful to you other than that Bible.
Speaker 1:So I saw something recently online. There's a picture of Sam Smith walking down the street. He literally had a fucking t-shirt on and some short shorts Right, not even that short, like literally probably little shorter from the length that like I wear, which is not that short, maybe rugby short length. We'll put it that way.
Speaker 3:Because, everyone will know what that means.
Speaker 1:We have a decent amount of people. that would equate that to something We'll say mid-thigh. Yeah, google it, google it Google a nice set of rugby thighs And somebody like made a meme out of it the picture of him and then was like, where did masculinity in our world go? Or something was like the question. And somebody responded to this shit in a thread. I am gonna have to find it so we could post it on our social media.
Speaker 1:And was like you know what I'm talking about. What age of masculinity were you going for? And then like posted a picture from the 80s where men were wearing like literal The runner shorts. Yes, like the basketball players wearing like the short shorts and men wore literally belly shorts Like halter tops Like belly, shorts Like the fish man, halter tops, yes.
Speaker 1:And then it like went back to like 1700s where they had like the bloomers on. And, like the men's shoes, had heels on them And they wore wigs. Yes, and they wore wigs and they curled their hair and wore lipstick. Yes, yes, makeup. Like back, way back, like men wore makeup, like this is like the OG drag queens right there. Yes, and then I'm sitting there and I'm like, and then it starts to get me thinking. I'm like is this toxic masculinity thing? Like, is this? this is actually very recent.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:I don't think it's recent. I think it's an evolving thing. It's just based in the patriarchy, Yeah that's fair, that's fair. And so, with it being patriarchy being a newly like explored thing that has alternate, like alternatives, now with the label of toxic masculinity that you want to become a thing, that's fair.
Speaker 1:But like-.
Speaker 3:So shit's always been toxic though.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, let's be real.
Speaker 3:Some white guy, some white guy some white guy It was not in this decade. It's been a minute.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's completely fair.
Speaker 2:Every shitty rule that's ever been made is from a white guy. Yeah, absolutely, name one that isn't. I'll wait.
Speaker 1:But the and the other thing is too is that, like trans and drag is now getting sandwiched together, i feel like, especially in the public, and like those are not the same thing. Like not every person that's trans does drag and not every person that does drag is trans, and it's like you know you wanna point out drag queens, drag kings, and how detrimental it is for your children to see that These are all the same people, though that would put their child in a beauty pageant though when they're like six and will have their kids sexualized in that way though. So it's just like the willingness to just hatefulness, like you're gonna pick something you don't like and you're gonna be hateful about it, but there's nothing wrong with drag And there's nothing wrong with being trans. But to like slap these two things together and try to say, like well, this is why it's harmful, because then my kid sees that and I'm trying to teach my kid how to be a man.
Speaker 1:Like that's what you're seeing a lot of now And it's gross, it's disgusting. Like you don't even know what the fuck you're talking about. Like maybe read a book before you open your goddamn mouth. Like it's a really, really difficult thing to watch happen And like it sucks. Seeing it like having so many friends that I know that are. Like going through it right now, like seeing all this stuff.
Speaker 2:And you know, it's kind of crazy too, because I feel that there isn't a lot of opportunity for youth to be involved with like drag queens. I mean like last year they had an event Were you guys there? Were any of you there? They did it at the loft right in the inner harbor And it was like supposed to be like any age. So I brought Piper to see the drag show and she literally was the only child there, even though it was promoted as like a youth event.
Speaker 2:Like the Q center was there and stuff So it, but she was the literal only one there And I was just kind of like taken back, like what can you do more?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just literally like what's the? I just don't understand.
Speaker 2:Like what's the hold back?
Speaker 1:People that like to get dressed up put a bunch of makeup on.
Speaker 2:Like what? like Yeah, absolutely, piper absolutely loves it. I mean, we've been since she's been very young. I've exposed her to these things, which I think is important, you know, to expose our youth. She obviously has, like two or three years old, called it like just costumes Mom, can we watch the costume show? Because it was like RuPaul's drag race. So they're making all their stuff. But now that she's older she understands, like she has met drag queens in full drag and those same people at like other events outside of drag and has put the two together now, but like she wouldn't have done that unless I exposed that to her.
Speaker 2:So like, i feel like, this generation needs to like expose their kids to that.
Speaker 1:That's it though You're hitting the nail on the head. Exposure to things creates questioning of things, and that's what they don't like.
Speaker 2:I would much rather expose her to the drag show than to 90% of the other things that are going around on in this world right now. You know what I'm saying. So it's like people need to step up and start making those decisions to do the right thing.
Speaker 1:Educate themselves. Any parting words for you guys.
Speaker 2:It was a lot.
Speaker 4:Yeah, parting words Stay classy.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 4:That's what those are, my parting words.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Jay, anything from you Or anything else you want to cover before we wrap it up.
Speaker 3:I mean, i think it's just the church in general and then, like Colts, frequently have the like, this sentiment, like, come as you are and then we'll change you to fit what works for us, and just so many churches that I've seen that say come as you are, but then that is not what's actually accepted.
Speaker 3:But I think what we've talked about so much today is that there are places where like can come as you are and be accepted outside of the church And it's like rugby or drag shows or just so many other places that being who you are and being who you are can change and still be appreciated and respected and enjoyed and celebrated. That like that's where, like, growth and transformation can happen is like find that place that's authentically come as you are.
Speaker 1:Yeah, i think that you don't. You're the one that has to get up every morning and look in the mirror and like who you see, and I am often a bit of a people pleaser. So I think it took me a long time to like kind of figure out what that meant for me, even once I did come out Like there was still I mean, like I said they'll dress them in the wedding day Like I still have those moments of like doing the people pleasing thing. And it's like you have to remind yourself like all those people some day, like not all those people will be gone some day, but like a lot of times when you're dealing with family, especially parents, like there's going to be a day where it's you and it's just you left and they're not going to be here anymore, and you still have to wake up and like who you see in the mirror.
Speaker 1:And I think it's important that everyone out there knows, like CJ mentioned this earlier, not everybody People that say it'll be okay, they'll come around That's not the truth for everybody, but you do have the power to change your circumstances in your life. You might not be able to change who somebody else is, but there are good people out there, there are good places out there, there are good communities out there and might be a little bit harder to find, but it exists and you can find that.
Speaker 4:And people will love you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and if you need help, you can DM us. Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1:And reach out to us.
Speaker 2:I give great hugs. If you're a hugger, i'll give you a mom hug, oh can I have one later? Yeah, I'll give you a mom hug. I'll give you like 10.
Speaker 3:I'll give you a dad hug. Dad hugs mom hugs. But for real if you're struggling, yeah.
Speaker 2:If you're scared, if you need help, we're here. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:And break. Oh, is this a break?
Speaker 1:And we're back. All right, we're going to shoot the show down Sunday.
Speaker 2:Shoot in the show on Sunday, but will it be real quick?
Speaker 1:It will be, it needs to be. It has to be Yeah we've been recording for fucking three hours.
Speaker 2:That's usually how it goes, guys.
Speaker 1:Knows, before this, the longest that we have recorded was a two and a half hour.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like yeah, so this is the longest I know because I know the thing. Oh true.
Speaker 1:The longest that we had like audio, but four was two and a half hours Okay.
Speaker 3:I wonder Jen was flipping all these cards around, Yeah, My camera battery died, Oh no.
Speaker 2:And it was fully charged.
Speaker 1:But yeah, so I had a week.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you sure did Tell us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we were supposed to Maybe record last Sunday, so we were supposed to record last Sunday for anyone that saw social media. The vehicle in the front was Ford Bronco, which belongs to my fiance. The white vehicle, the Jeep, was some 19 year old dummy that decided to pull in my driveway and accelerate And quote, unquote, turn around Yeah. They claimed they were doing a three point turn and what ended up happening is Autumn's car ended up getting like yeeted three quarters of the way into the garage through the closed garage door.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So that was my Sunday last week So we did not end up recording, but there's like $50,000 in damage to my home. The right side's like off the foundation right now. So quote unquote if I die under a crumbling mess of a house like loved you all.
Speaker 2:Love you too, yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, somebody to share her docs, is your bedroom over there?
Speaker 1:Our bedroom. No, so like the bedroom's not over there, but the bedroom, like the foundation's screwed up on both sides and the bedroom is next to the one set of foundation, but it's, i don't think this side is the less. The side that's like touching our bedroom is less concerning The side that's really screwed up is just touches the outside and there's nothing under it, So that's probably not true just keep telling yourself that you're on the safer side.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're on the safer side. I get able to sleep at night.
Speaker 1:So yeah, so it's been a week, but the hilarious part about this we're going to have to back start track on a story.
Speaker 2:I know, can we like clip in the Susan conversation?
Speaker 1:I'm just going to retell it because we wanted to know for a while about Susan So.
Speaker 2:Jim's got to pull it up.
Speaker 1:On our social media. On our social media, we've had like overwhelming good comments, right. So, it's been pretty good Yeah, like really no negativity.
Speaker 2:Just one, surprising Just one.
Speaker 1:But there was one.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And somebody left a comment, Susan.
Speaker 2:On our Facebook, on our.
Speaker 1:Facebook. I think she meant for it to be a DM, because after like five minutes she deleted it and then DMed it to us.
Speaker 3:Yeah, just like looking for it right now.
Speaker 1:Susan needs to learn how to Facebook, But What are you trying to do in online? But it basically said it sounds like you need a good therapist and a better relationship with the real God And you need to learn to love yourself. Yes.
Speaker 2:Which I do just fine. Thank you, Susan.
Speaker 1:And also we probably have been to more therapy than Susan Susan.
Speaker 2:Susan, i go to therapy once a week And I can text freely whenever I want, yeah, so we had comments lined up back to Susan Like nothing, like I'm not going to be aggressive. No, it's just like funny.
Speaker 1:Like. Thanks for listening, susan, kind of thing. But by the time we went to comment back, she had like deleted it and such a good DM which is like way less fun to like snarky.
Speaker 2:No, because then no one else can see it.
Speaker 1:But we just let it go. But our joke has been like Susan's are Karen Karen. Susan's are Karen. But so this person crashes through my garage right And I'm looking at the accident report and, like, the girl's name was Carol. Yeah, and I'm looking at the accident report. Her, the, the, the insurance is in her mom's name. Her mom's name is fucking Susan.
Speaker 2:Susan, susan, susan found out where you lived.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So now I'm like, is it the same Hired her daughter Was this the live link.
Speaker 1:Because if you look at that video It looks pretty deliberate. There was a lot of people that were asking like, was that on purpose? And I don't think it was on purpose, but I could see like where somebody It looks pretty on purpose Because there was like zero effort.
Speaker 2:There was no backing up.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There was only acceleration. She was like my mom told me to do this. I'm Susan's daughter. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's so. yeah, that's, that's been my week.
Speaker 2:So now, we have to make shirts that say one chasing that rainbow straight to hell, And then the next shirt coming out is going to say Susan maybe do it. Oh yeah, susan, maybe do it.
Speaker 4:What would Susan do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then we'll just have like a screenshot picture of the car ramming into Autumn's car like on it.
Speaker 1:Maybe that would trigger me a little bit.
Speaker 2:Oh then my current pal Too soon, too soon, too soon, too soon. Oh, my God Yeah.
Speaker 1:Well, honestly, like the so we were, we weren't even here. No, i wasn't home. I mean, crush, like great friend, crush was here before I could get back here.
Speaker 2:I got here so fast from North Syracuse Like so fast. I beat them here because I was like, oh shit's going to go down.
Speaker 3:Honestly, that's not surprising Wow.
Speaker 1:Are you putting me on blast on my own podcast about my my lack of? management skills If you want to deny the truth that feels unauthentic in an episode that we were talking about being our authentic selves. I'm a late bitch, okay.
Speaker 2:You love me anyway I hope.
Speaker 1:I didn't say otherwise, but uh well, we were in Baldwin'sville, we were at that. Oh yeah, you were further out the angry smokehouse, that new barbecue place which, by the way, like I know, we're not getting advertisement money right now.
Speaker 2:Shout out to the bar.
Speaker 1:Shout out that place is delicious, dude Delicious. But I'm in the middle of biting my smoked baloney And my phone starts ringing Smoked baloney. So Autumn and I let's rewind Autumn and I did the, each did a, you pick two. So like two meats, two sides, which is a very classic barbecue.
Speaker 2:Like yeah.
Speaker 1:For those of you that haven't done that. So autumn got the brisket and the ribs which is a correct choice.
Speaker 1:Well, i can eat some of hers. So this is my point Like we don't, we don't double down on the same things, so I got they had like spicy sausage, smoked sausage, so I got that. And then the other two options were pulled pork, which I feel like tastes the same everywhere. I don't, i'm not really. Let me also say that, like I'm not, i'm not a huge pulled pork person, like for me so you're a big baloney person.
Speaker 2:Actually listen, weren't you there? Didn't you come from?
Speaker 3:the red casing around it.
Speaker 1:No, but it was like a thick fucking baloney steak that was smoked and it was bomb. I am a baloney person and I'm not afraid to admit that.
Speaker 2:Does your baloney have a first name? Does your baloney have a first name Is it OSDAR? And does your baloney have a second name? Why is all of this? Why is it?
Speaker 1:so far over my head. You don't know who I am.
Speaker 3:Oh my God. You say you're a baloney person It's. OSDAR Baloney has a second name, it's NYER.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, no, did you?
Speaker 3:ever get a baloney whistle.
Speaker 2:No, i never. Have you ever seen the wiener truck?
Speaker 3:Yeah, No, i applied to drive the wiener truck.
Speaker 2:I think it was in like second grade. How do you not know that song? Is this a glitch in?
Speaker 1:the matrix, possibly. I also feel like this just turned into a roast. Oh me, a wiener roast.
Speaker 3:Yeah, wait, tell you, i will not be roasting baloney though.
Speaker 2:Wait, but didn't you come for the pulled pork at our house?
Speaker 1:Oh, forever, she's not that into it And you can put together a special smoked baloney.
Speaker 2:He might be able to do some smoked baloney for you. Listen, linda, you don't want to eat the roast.
Speaker 1:Listen, susan, here's the thing, though, what I was getting to.
Speaker 2:I don't.
Speaker 1:I'm not a huge pork person. In general I love bacon And because, like, i feel like it's un-American to not like bacon, unless you're not going to eat meat for whatever reason, but I am, i'm judging, so please don't, but I don't really like like I won't eat pork cutlet, like I don't like it. So for me, like the pulled pork becomes so much more about the, it's a vessel for the barbecue sauce. Yes, agreed, so I do agree with that.
Speaker 3:Baloney is for the flavor.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's mystery meat, and.
Speaker 3:I'm okay with that. Do you know that I feel like this?
Speaker 2:jeep is karma for your baloney. Wow, wow, wow, all right, that's too far. All right, $10,000 for a baloney.
Speaker 1:But like a fry a fry. yeah, the cheapest lunch meat in the world $50,000. That better be a fucking lifetime supply, my friend. I better never go hungry again. It's specifically like it's not like I just like prefer the lunch meat of baloney, like a fried baloney sandwich with some cheese. It's just the best man I used to get. I think it's like a nostalgic thing from being a kid because when I like grew up, we grew up down, up down the street from the Italian festival which there's so many like. my family is so Italian, i get all the Italian things every day. So it's not like I'm at the Italian festival like needing the Italian food, because my grandma makes most of that better anyway than whatever anyone's serving. So like the one thing I would always get when we would go there is there's this one stand that made like baloney steak, like fried baloney sandwich, and that was like the highlight of the Italian festival for me every year, because we just never did that. So I think now it's just like this Is your thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Do you know that the bar on the corner from my house serves fried baloney on the daily?
Speaker 1:There's a lot of places that do, but there is like a very, there's a very specific thing that makes a good fried baloney though.
Speaker 2:Is it's going to be like our pizza free topic? We have to like? new poll on the Instagram. Would you pick rump roast or baloney? I mean like okay would you? pick pulled pork or baloney.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, okay, i'd like to see the results. I'm sure that I'm like the one and only on the baloney again.
Speaker 2:I need to pull an Oscar Mayer.
Speaker 1:Oh my God, yes, i'm not saying that it's always the superior choice. I'm saying for me. I was more interested in the smoked baloney than I was the pulled pork.
Speaker 3:How did autumn feel about this? Because there was like I'm presuming there was a share in the situation, yeah.
Speaker 1:So autumn, autumn, actually like I'm not saying that there's not pulled pork that's better than other pulled pork, but like the peak of pulled pork to me is really not that exciting, and like I've not been somewhere where I've had smoked baloney before, i was like I've had fried baloney but I haven't had like smoked baloney before, so I was more interested in that, if that makes more sense.
Speaker 3:I wasn't asking about your opinion.
Speaker 1:No, autumn was no, autumn was autumn was. Fine with it, she. I mean the last time we did this did she know about your baloney love? Absolutely. Is it going to be on the wedding?
Speaker 2:menu.
Speaker 1:It's like a family joke with her family.
Speaker 2:Is it going to be on the wedding menu? Oh smoked baloney and corn soup.
Speaker 1:Um, the corn soup cannot be on the wedding menu because we're not allowed. We like it has to be catered by that guy.
Speaker 2:Oh, right, right right, I'm not allowed to have some white food.
Speaker 1:Make corn soup.
Speaker 2:Will he make smoked baloney?
Speaker 1:Yeah, he'd said anything that wasn't on the menu he'd be willing to make. So you know what I'm going to do. You know what I'm going to do. I am going to have smoked baloney served to only you three.
Speaker 3:Oh, I can't wait.
Speaker 4:I have not said a single thing about the baloney.
Speaker 1:CJ is like I don't want baloney and I wasn't yelling at you.
Speaker 2:Do you eat it with ketchup Like baloney ketchup?
Speaker 1:Mayo Like if I'm making this baloney sandwich this is actually this would actually be a better poll is do you eat mayo or mustard with your baloney, which is a big conflict.
Speaker 2:I would pick mayo. I'm saying I don't really like mustard that much.
Speaker 1:If you were going to eat baloney? Yeah, if you were going to. That sounds delicious.
Speaker 2:Like if you were going to make smoked baloney, do you just get the little plastic package and pull those slices out and slap it in your smoker? No, I think you would get it from little hooks No. I think No little meat flops and the genuinely, genuinely.
Speaker 1:I think that you would get. I think that you would get like the whole, like like I don't even know what you call that The baloney log, the log Yeah the log of it And then you would smoke.
Speaker 1:I'm going to have to ask Angel, that's the same thing you would do, like if you were going to smoke a slab of bacon. You wouldn't get the slices of the bacon and smoke it. You would get the whole slab and then you'd cut it after you smoked it. So I think the same idea, generally speaking. But yeah, i picked the smoke baloney. Okay, so there was that. And then there was the other option was pulled chicken, and if I wasn't going to get the pulled pork, i'm not going to get the pulled chicken. So I think it really was, because the last time that we did this, we were in Texas and we did the same thing and we got the pulled pork and it was actually the most disappointing thing out of like the four things that we had gotten. So I think that's kind of like it didn't really taste anything like smoke, like it really just didn't taste that much different than pulled pork. So I was like I don't, i'd rather try smoke baloney, which I've never had And I do really like baloney.
Speaker 2:So it interrupted your baloney when Carol Susan's daughter smashed through your house.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So then Autumn didn't even get to eat the ribs hot, which, as anyone knows. Oh, i brought your leftovers in.
Speaker 2:I could have snuck a peek to the smoke baloney.
Speaker 1:Yeah Damn, i didn't even know I know, what's funny is like her parents were here this weekend and I was like here, eat these leftovers, like what? you guys hungry, whatever. Her dad sitting at the table. At one point I like walked in the house, walked out of the house and then I walked back in and was walking by and he was like I'm eating your ham And mind you wait. So Autumn cooked a ham on Easter, yeah, and I saw that in there.
Speaker 1:You came over for the head. She did a feast man Like she did good, knocked it out of the park, i start. I said you're eating what? And he must have thought I was mad that he was eating my leftovers. And I was like, no, like what are you? what are you, what are you eating? And she was, and he was like your ham And I was like, oh fuck, cause.
Speaker 3:I thought it was going to be. So I thought.
Speaker 1:I thought that there was still ham in the fridge from Easter And I started panicking about, like, what was going to happen to his digestive system after this And I pulled it up and I was like man, that's baloney, so. But yeah, so Susan went through the garage and now it needs to get fixed, or not? Susan? Susan's, susan's on Yeah. But the name Susan. I have an aunt Sue, but this name is haunting me right now. She might have to ever change her name or something I don't know Susan with her purple flower profile picture.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, i forgot, you did the. You did the investigation. Oh, of course I did Yeah.
Speaker 2:I just wanted to know who was telling me I needed to love myself more.
Speaker 1:So, susan, Anyway, anything else for shooting the shit on a Sunday. I think that's it.
Speaker 2:I don't really have any other topics?
Speaker 1:I mean.
Speaker 2:I feel like so much has happened in the last couple of weeks that I don't even know what to talk about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean you did. you had spring break, You did the water park.
Speaker 2:There's just two, two bouts of straight throat.
Speaker 1:We've been yeah, we've been living our life for a bit, So Yeah, we've been trying to hide the last few weeks but we're back Yeah. I think this will end up being a two-parter, at least So.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's good though.
Speaker 1:Welcome us back to your airwaves.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:All right. Well, i think that's going to wrap it for this week. So, done.
